The Man Who Outsmarted 90% Of Traders, And Became A US Investing Champion

from professional poker player to a world-class  trader who achieved in 2024 a 430% return in a   single year in the US investing championships  and then achieved a 165% plus return in 2025.   Introducing Christian Flander. There's a reason  why 90% of people who try to trade don't make   it. Normal doesn't pay in trading. You have to  do things that others won't. I I've taken about   400 trades and I do overtrade quite a bit.  Uh, but I've taken 400 trades, give or take,   and I want to say I've had 10 trades that were 10R  or greater. And if you remove all those trades,   I'm I'm not winning. I'm like break even.  It's like a few trades make up all the wins.   Everything else kind of cancels out because  in this episode, we learn the exact steps   that Christian took in order to transition from  a professional poker player to a independent,   profitable trader. A big game hunter. I'm going  for out outlier wins. I'm I'm going for home runs   when I when I trade. With swing trading, you can  be in position for weeks, even months. I mean,   I think I'm in a position right now that I've  been in for almost 5 months. You know, I'm just   letting the winner run. You know, whether it's a 5  minute, 10-minute, you know, 30 minute, you know,   5-second, daily, weekly, whatever it is, you  don't want to risk more than through this episode,   you will understand how the harm of gambling can  hurt your trading. Christian runs through exactly   how he turned things around from consistent losser  to consistent profitable within the markets.   When I look back at my career, I look back at  my spreadsheets and look at the trades, it's   just every year before you know it, it's like you  go from losing to profitable and then it's like,   wow, I'm really profitable and then I'm hugely  profitable just just from a few a few tweaks.   My worst trade ever was the second year, but I  remember I think I lost 20% of my account in a   day on a trade I never should have taken. I knew  I shouldn't have taken it and I took it anyways.   And it was the first time I'd ever entered  without a lot of people do comparisons when it   comes to poker and trading, gambling obviously and  trading. And so no one better to ask in regards to   like what were the similarities maybe things  that helped when it came to your career as a   poker player and then transitioning to a trader  but also maybe were there some cons to that that   maybe actually held you back a bit when it came  to trading as well. Sure. So uh first off thanks   for the introduction that that was wonderful.  uh in terms of trading and and poker there's a   lot of similarities obviously risk management  uh but first I I want to clarify that poker I   don't consider poker gambling although there are  aspects of gambling in it I think of gambling is   uh when you when you don't have an edge yes okay  so with with poker you know if you're a winning   player obviously you have an edge if you're a  losing player then I would I would consider that   gambling but in terms of the similarities between  poker and trading there's many risk management   uh the emotional aspects of it the psychological  aspects of it uh and and uh and and the game is is   very similar uh in in the sense that you're you're  you're battling your opponents, but you're also   dealing with yourself and your own emotional  and mental uh makeup. Was there anything that   really uh held you back in terms of the element of  successful poker playing transitioning to trading?   I wouldn't say it held me back, but but there is  an adaption period with poker. Um you're you're   you're really playing against the other players.  So poker is more of a a relative skill game. So as   long as you're better than the opponent you're  playing against, you can win. So if you're an,   you know, a fantastic poker player, but you only  play better players, you're not you're going to   lose. If you can find weaker opponents, you'll  win. The market trading is more a game against   yourself. Uh it's more of an absolute skill game  where if you can uh you're really it's really a   battle with yourself and and your own uh emotions  and weaknesses and and strengths is is the best   way I I I could put it. I love that. And you know  I love that in terms of that clarification because   I think it's so true with trading as well. It's  like almost the same like trading is gambling when   you have no edge. Oh 100% 100%. I know a lot of  people that say they're trading but but they're   just straight gambling. Yeah. And and and and  to be fair, some traders when they're trading,   you know, they do have an edge. And then when they  go on tilt, which you see all the time in poker,   when they go on tilt in their trading, they  start revenge trading, they start sizing up,   they start chasing losses, then they're gambling.  And it's the gambling that is what causes most   people to lose at trading. In in my opinion, it's  probably the thing that causes a lot of emotional   damage. So that even if they do start to make some  progress, that emotional damage is still there,   still lingering. to that really holds them back.  Yes. Going back though to last year's performance,   433% in a single year. What stands out to you  as what made that achievable for you? Yes. Well,   uh so that was the seventh year of of my trading  full-time, trading for a living. So, uh I want to   clarify that for the first six years, you know,  I I struggled. Uh I was a profitable trader, but   I never had a return that large. I had some big  years. I did have years where I was up over 100%.   But I had, you know, many losing years, too. So,  you know, uh, someone said it best on on X that,   you know, your your P&L is a lagging indicator.  So, you will improve as a trader over time,   assuming you're improving, but the P&L lag. So,  that seventh year, that is when everything kind   of came together. I really did a fantastic job  controlling my draw downs and uh sizing into the   opportunities that that I saw that were presented  that year of of which there were there were there   weren't many but there were enough that uh I  I could make that return happen. And also to   clarify, I didn't go into that year thinking I  was going to make that kind of return. I mean   that I don't think anyone thinks they're going to  make that kind of return. I I really didn't even   think that was possible until until it happened.  Um but but it just it opened my eyes to, you know,   the possibilities. Interesting question. So having  that such outsized year and even as you say not   not something that you thought was possible coming  into this year did that have any sort of negative   impact at all? Not negative. Um you know my goal  every year you know I I want to have a green year   ideally you know that that that's always best. Uh  in terms of this year that was really the focus.   Uh and then just you you know I I try to take what  the market gives. So if the market is has a lot of   opportunities I know I try to capitalize on it. If  not, then there's not much you can do. You know,   you can only give what the market takes. And  you started out, did you start your trading   career at a traditional proprietary firm back in  2008 or were you trading before that as well? So,   I actually traded at a prop firm before that in  uh early 2000s, right after college. they were   trading an outdated strategy that probably worked  in the late '9s um using level two quotes, but   uh it it it didn't really work very effectively  anymore. Uh and then after that, I worked at a at   a prop trading firm that traded US Treasury and  Treasury futures spreads and the firm basically   blew up in the '0809 financial crisis. And then  after that, I was playing poker uh the whole time.   I I started playing in college. I it was like  the advent of the online poker boom. Um and uh   I was making more playing poker than my job. And I  thought, hey, you know, I love the game, you know,   let's see what happens. I I'll try this for a  while. And uh and then I it I I it went really   well and I I kept going. What was the decision  to Well, one, you came back to trading multiple   times then. Yeah. But then what was the decision  that ultimately made you think, okay, let me leave   the professional poker play to go to something  that you've already tried a few times, right?   Such as trading. So, I fell in love with trading  in high school. I read a book uh reminiscent of   a stock operator, like you know, one of the  greatest books ever on trading. I read How to   make money in stocks. That really that really uh  resonated with me. I I read that book and thought,   you know, this this it makes sense. It works. I I  can see it working. Uh why I left poker. Um I was   playing on the legal New Jersey sites at the time  and there just weren't very many games and players   wouldn't really play with me anymore. So, you  know, if that that kind of uh makes it difficult   to make a living if if people don't want to play  with you. Uh and uh with poker, I always thought   that the ceiling was capped. You know, I mean, you  can you can make very good money playing poker,   but but there's a cap. There's there's a ceiling  to to to the uh amount of money you can make, but   with trading, there's there's no ceiling. There's  it's the potential for unlimited uh wealth,   which is so enticing and why so many go for it.  Coming into then trading, making that transition.   Was there a lot of people always talk about the  struggles of not having any capital to trade,   especially early on in their career. A lot of  people unfortunately never overcome that hurdle.   What was it like then coming into trading  with some form of capital with experience   not essentially well you had some experience when  it came to markets but you had experience when it   came to risk tolerance you know and then risking  capital essentially in these poker games. Yes.   Was that something that was a struggle maybe in  terms of having capital and understanding risk   coming into the market? Right. Uh so with poker  yes I did have a lot of capital from poker. I I   had been very diligent with my savings. So I had  a very large capital base to start which I know   most people do not have. So I was very fortunate  in that sense. I didn't need a huge percentage   return on my capital to to make enough to you  know to cover the living expenses right. Um in   terms of taking risk uh I was comfortable with it  you know I' I've been comfortable taking risk but   that's a skill. I mean I remember when I started  playing poker I mean it would be $50 you know I   I put online and and I I lost it and I was just  devastated. I mean it was that was all the money I   had in the world. I I put back on another hundred  and I I was able to turn that into pretty much   everything I have today. But uh but no, I mean  it's it's it's emotionally difficult to go through   those losses. And at trading when I first started,  it was a totally different kind of feeling because   in in poker, the feeling, you know, if you play  poker, you understand the feeling when you're all   in for for a large amount of money and there's  this uncertainty. You don't know what's going   to happen next. You you you just you don't know.  You're all in. The cards haven't been dealt yet.   In trading, to me at least, it felt like that all  the time because you're in these positions and you   don't know what's going to happen. You're totally  out of your control. All you can control is where   you put your stop and and and where you're going  to take profits, but everything in between that   it's totally out of your control. So, that feeling  of uncertainty um it was always present and it it   never goes away. I still feel that today. It's  obviously muted because I've been doing this   for a long time and I I and I I'm familiar with  it. But that feeling of uncertainty is extremely   uncomfortable and it's something you just have to  get used to as as you trade. Trading education is   completely broken. For years, the industry  has been purged and poisoned by bad actors,   fake results, and strategies hidden behind pay  walls. But in every industry, every once in a   while becomes a catalyst, a moment in time for  change. Now imagine a world where elite trading   education was entirely free. Education with no  hidden agenda, verified trading results, and real   profitable strategies, all for free. Welcome to  Chart Academy. Chart Academy is the world's first   all-in-one platform for trading education. Chart  Academy is free. No catch, no upsells, no strings   attached. Worldclass trading education. Completely  free. Hi, my name is Randy Howell and welcome to   my Chart Academy Master Class. This is completely  revolutionary. The biggest change in trader   education in 20 years. My name is Karma Rosado.  I'm a verified 7igure trader. I've been trading   for 10 years now. The reason why a lot of traders  fail is because they ultimately this work is about   selfmastery. Trading education will never be the  same again. Browse hundreds of hours of content in   forex, futures, stocks, options, and crypto from  the best verified traders on the planet. All in   one platform. Experience a completely personalized  trading plan tailored to you and your goals. Reach   milestones, redeem points, and earn rewards with a  massive global community. Whether you trade forex,   futures, stock, options, or crypto, Chart  Academy has something for you. Join the   weight list now and be part of a movement that  is going to change trading education forever. So, would you say the only way to really get used  to that is that level of experience growing and   getting the reps in? You need exposure to  it. You have to you have to get comfortable   with it and and that's why I when I uh speak  with people who are interested in trading or   starting I I recommend that they start small but  enough where the the money matters but it's not   going to you know have a you know a really  adverse impact on your life. It has to be a   controlled amount of money so you experience those  emotions you experience those feelings um because   that that's really the the skill of trading is  being able to overcome those very uncomfortable   feelings that you experience constantly. Would  you say the element of dynamic sizing that you   see in poker quite often, was that something you  were able to adapt to and implement within your   trading quite easily in that sense because you've  already experienced it? I I wouldn't say easily,   but yes, I def I definitely uh size varying on my  conviction in the idea for sure. And then when it   came to your trading career, we we talked about  just before we started how you know for the first   you said seven years, right? Yeah. Where you  didn't really know any other traders or have   interaction with other traders. What was that like  then? because seven years is a quite a long time,   quite a long period, you know. What what  allowed you to change that? Yeah. So,   uh the first seven years I was I mean I was on  an island literally and figuratively. I I was   living in Puerto Rico and uh trading and you know  I didn't really have anyone to talk with. I mean   I I was on Twitter. I mean I I I read threads. I  I subscribed to a few services but I was really   just doing it on my own. I mean I still do it on  my own today but now I I have a lot of traders   that I've met thanks to uh participating in the  USIC. I got to meet a lot of really great really   uh cool interesting people. I've I've been to  a few uh trading seminars uh Mark Minervini's   uh annual gala where I I got to meet a lot of  traders which was fantastic. And that's I mean   that's really been the best part of being in that  uh competition and uh being on Twitter and being   more you know participating more on it rather than  just lurking is is getting the opportunity to meet   a lot of really interesting really cool people. as  part of that has it actually helped your trading   you being able to connect with other traders and  sort of speak on uh trading I guess with other   traders. I I I think I 100% think so because a lot  of the feelings you experience while trading the   feeling you know the uncertainty the stress the  fear all those things I mean I've spoken to other   traders that when they're starting off they think  that they're unique to them that they're the only   ones feeling it and they tell me oh you you know  you're like a robot you don't feel any of this.   I'm like what what are you talking about? Like  I felt all those emotions so powerfully over the   last you know I mean now with poker I mean it's 18  years almost the last 20 years of my almost half   my life I've experienced those emotions almost  daily and uh I I still feel them but but it's   it's not acting on them. You can feel it but not  act on it. Right. And and that's that's the hard   part. Did you ever have a a performance coach  in your poker profession or career? I I did. I   had coaching several times, but it was more  strategic, not performance related. I I did   just recently start performance coaching, but we  haven't but but we're still in the introductory   phase where we're getting to know each other, but  Got you. Got you. What's the mindset with that at   this stage then? Is it just to be able to sort  of push to the next level within your trading?   Exactly. Uh so I read this fantastic book called  uh the mental what's it called? Uh the mental game   of trading. Something like that. It's Oh jeez.  I mean it's by Stephen, my coach. He'll kill me   if he sees Steven Goldston. Yeah, Stephen Gold.  Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, he's so I know   he's you know he's he's coached Market Wizards.  Uh very highly recommended and um I wanted to   get coaching from him. So, but a part of me held  myself back. It it was it was my my ego saying,   "Look, you know, you've made it so far on your  own. You know, how's this guy going to help you?   You don't need it. You're good on your own. You  don't need it." But I I I I realized, you know,   I I don't know what he can do to help, but if  he can do anything to help me, like I I need to   reach out. I need to I need to fight this. And the  fact that a part of me didn't want to do it made   me realize I I have to do it. So, I reached out  and uh you know, we'll see how it goes. But yeah,   the goal is to to just continually improve. I  mean, that that's really the the secret, if there   is any, is is continual improvement. Um you know,  every trade, every week, every month, every year,   you're just trying to get a little bit better.  Um, a lot of the mistakes I made at the start, uh,   for those first six years of struggle, you know, I  I I I don't make a lot of them. I still make some   of them, but to a much lesser degree than I did  before. What was like one of the lowest moments in   your trading career if you were to look back? Was  there ever a moment that was actually, you know,   really stands out to you as that that was like the  low of this trading career so far? Jeez. I mean,   there there was there's a lot there's a lot. I I I  have a lot of very uh painful memories. I mean it   is it is a very difficult uh thing to do. Uh my  worst trade ever was the second year I remember   because uh my wife I I either we had the baby  or she was pregnant at the time but I remember   I think I lost I want to say 20% of my account a  day on a trade I never should have taken. I knew   I shouldn't have taken it and I took it anyways.  And it was the first time I'd ever entered without   a stop loss. Oh wow. And uh I learned uh a  very expensive lesson that day. Always have a   stop-loss. Um it was uh the volatility ETFs.  I don't know if you remember the volatility   ETFs back, but but they were uh they were just  going up constantly. Anytime they had to sell,   they would continually rally in 2017. And then in  2018, we had the VIX apocalypse where they they   basically blew up overnight. And literally  that evening or or that like at the close,   I would I was buying them because they always came  back. I knew better. I had read the perspectus. I   knew they were destined to blow up. And I bought  it anyways. And overnight they started gapping   down 5 10 15 20 25% and I was just frozen. I  was just stuck. I just could not believe what   was happening in front of me. And eventually I I  I I sold out at I don't know minus 35% or or give   or take after hours. And and that and that was  my worst trade ever. And I I remember thinking   man like you've dug yourself a hole this year.  Um it's going to be hell to dig out of it. And   uh then I was incredibly I actually was up 100%  from from minus maybe 25% in my account to plus   100 in August and then I proceeded to go  from plus 100 to plus 20 from August to   uh January. Um a very bad draw down and that  losing did not stop. It kept going into 2019   until 2020 until the bottom of 2020. So that was  almost a year long. I want to say that draw down   was almost like 65 70% which was absolutely brutal  soul crushing draw down and uh I'd like to say   that was it but but uh I I did well in 2020 and  then I had another absolutely brutal draw down   going to 2024 which is when uh everything finally  came together and I figured out exactly what it   was I had to do. What was it actually like then  to go through those periods in terms of what was   your mental inner dialogue looking like as you're  experiencing this, you know, month after month,   maybe even multi-year draw down periods while  you're trying to be full-time as you mentioned   potentially a newborn on the way or newborn  in your life as well. Several newborns. Yeah,   sever several newborns. Well, congratulations  on that as well. But then equally, you know,   you're full-time in trading now at this point. And  yes, you putting aside obviously having capital   that does not change the fact that you're trying  to live from trading and you're experiencing,   as you said, these emotions regardless of a career  beforehand where there's risk involved. It doesn't   change anything, right? What was that actually  like that inner dialogue? What was that, you know,   looking like for you? You know, I I have maybe  borderline delusional self-belief. So, so I always   thought I could do it. And often the dialogue,  you know, I'm very tough on myself. Um but I   but I also I also forgive myself. So a lot of the  things I knew what I should or should not do but I   did it anyways. So it was constantly asking myself  why like why are you doing this? Why you know you   shouldn't do this. Why are you doing it? Um and  eventually I just resolved you know to to just to   to just stop doing what I should not do. And it it  took me probably a lot longer than it should have   due to the pressure of you know trying to make  money constantly trying to make money. Um but but   yeah it was just it was just a gradual thing and  then in 2024 I I got the kind of market that I can   excel in. I sized into the uh opportunities that  I saw and uh I mean the rest is kind of history. I   mean and then you know when the market turned and  it it started pulling back I was like extremely   careful and extremely fast in cutting losers  and keeping the draw down controlled and more   importantly sizing down. That that was really that  was really key. Traders, let me tell you about the   best futures firm in the trading industry with  the largest payout cap across any firm. And   that is right, it's Alpha Futures. Alpha Futures  has been a proud sponsor of Words of Wisdom for   the last 2 years and running for one very simple  reason. They have an option for every trader from   their zero accounts to their standard accounts  or to their advanced accounts. You can see the   options on screen right now. and they've paid out  over $50 million to traders around the world just   like me and you. Their payout cap is three times  larger than any other firm in the industry and   they pay out consistently with an incredible  support team to back it all up. Not only that,   you have the options of getting up to $450,000  in funded capital at Alpha Futures. Alpha Futures   also offers the only path to professional live  trading at Alpha Prime. Trade consistently,   get payouts, and you can get called to trade on a  professional trading floor in the heart of London   with Miami and Dubai to come in the future as  well, where you can potentially earn a salary and   trade live capital with the help of quants and a  professional team at your back. Only available at   Alpha Prime and through Alpha Futures. Now you can  get the best discount available anywhere using the   code RZ at checkout. R I Z. Now the link is in the  description below. Let's get back to the episode.   Did you ever figure out why you were doing that  over and over? Yes, it was the pressure of putting   myself in a position where I had to make I felt  like I had to make money. So I would constantly   force trades. I would overtrade constantly trying  to make money. um focus purely on the money aspect   rather than focusing on the process. And would  you say that you needed the money necessarily? I   don't know if need is the right word, but I wanted  it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's an interesting thing,   right? Even need or want in the markets. Yeah. It  just doesn't work, right? That blend. Yeah. So, I   I found that when I focus on trying to make money  versus focusing on trading well on executing well,   then then the results suffer tremendously. when  I focus on executing my plan then then good good   things happen. Do you feel like an element was  that you had this professional and successful,   should I say, career before trading? Was it almost  an element of like I have to be successful at this   as well? Like I have to emulate that success.  Starting over because, you know, you're really   starting over if you go from, you know, I I  thought I was like a pretty good poker player,   you know. You know, I wouldn't say the top of  my field, but you know, a very strong player   going to a complete beginner. I mean, that's a  very humbling experience and and that's one a   lot of people wouldn't do. Um, but I I I realized  that, you know, if you want to excel at something,   you have to you have to go for it. You have to  be willing to put yourself in a position where,   you know, you could be embarrassed, you could  fail. Um, but at the same time, you know,   I was never going to give up. I was just going  to keep going until until I got it. Um, you know,   Mark Mervini's story, uh, really inspired me  that he, I mean, it took him, I think, six,   seven years for it to finally click and then  and then he made his fortune. And I was like,   you know, on year four, year five when I was  still struggling. Look, it took him, you know,   six, seven years. And, you know, it maybe it  takes me the same, maybe it takes me longer,   but I'm just not going to stop until I get it.  And in terms of then turning it around, well,   actually before that, one question I did have  is you had that inner self dialogue going on.   What was the dialogue like if any in terms of your  partner, your wife? Right. Um was it positive,   negative? I stayed very positive. Uh she was  not uh she she was a little she was very upset   at times, but I just told her, "Look, you know,  you you have to believe that that that I can make   this happen and that, you know, that I believe  strongly I can make it happen. I I see, you know,   I I had I would have good results. I'd have these  runs where I'd make so much money and then I would   give it back. And you know after I want to say  year four or five I realized hey look this if   you can just keep your monthly draw down at 5% or  less right if you just did that those years where   you're down 20 30%. You'd be even and the years  where you're only up you know a few% you'd be up   2030 and the years where you're up 50 to 70 you'd  be up 100 150. So I so I saw you know I looked at   the math I realized look look if you can just  adjust these few tweak these little things you   know the the math checks out you know like you  can make it happen but in real time when you're   actually going through a draw down you do not want  to cut size you do not want to stop trading you   want to make it back right now and that that was  the most damaging thing was trying to make back   the money immediately and I I I was I was speaking  earlier with one of the guys here but that was   what killed me in poker uh in poker when I would  have these uh uh losing sessions when you're down,   you know, thousands of dollars, you're you're  you're four or five hours in, you don't want to   stop. It's it's called being stuck. You never  want to quit a session stuck. You always want   to quit a winner. You never want to quit a loser.  So, I would go on these like binges really where   I would play 5, 6, 7, 10, 12, 14 hours online  poker, you know, 12 to 16 tables simultaneously,   not wanting to stop until I won. And and  sometimes it worked. Sometimes I did get unstuck,   but sometimes it I would just lose more and I  would end up being down. I mean, I think one of   my biggest losing sessions ever, I was, I don't  know, $25,000, $30,000. And at the end of it,   you're you're exhausted. You haven't slept.  It's like 6 a.m. and you're like, you know,   what am I doing with my life? Like, why, you  know, why did I do this to myself? It didn't   h I could have just stopped at midnight, but but I  just kept going. It's an interesting one because,   as you mentioned, like being able, if you  had quit earlier, you probably would have   saved yourself not only financial capital, but  most of all mental capital. And in the end,   you probably have that realization as well, like  I should have just stopped six hours ago. Yeah.   And then in trading, as you mentioned, like you  would review this data set and you would realize   actually if I had made these tweaks, all of these  negative moments and these huge declines in P&L   and and drawbacks and draw downs would actually  be a lot smoother of a an equity curve. What was   the moment that really allowed you to stick stick  it through as you mentioned like when I finally   decided to change and finally stop making these  mistakes? Was there any sort of motivating factor   or any sort of outside factor maybe that really  you really sunk that home that lesson? I think it   was when the when when the rally started in 2024.  So, you know, the market bottomed I want to say   in late 2022 and then you know the rally began in  2023. I I I missed that entire rally. Um in 2024,   uh Nvidia was, you know, the leading stock and  I was able to really capitalize on that move.   Um I just resolved like look, you know, you're  crushing it so far. Just do not draw down. Do   not give it back. You know what you have to do.  It's it's time to execute. It's it's time. It's   time to do that. And actually entering the USIC  helped in the sense that, you know, I wanted to   post my results every month. And I didn't want  the giant fluctuations. I wanted to keep it like   you know as as steadily upticking as I could. So  that also it almost made me more accountable to   like a you know like the audience the my my the  imaginary audience that's probably not following   the the results but maybe maybe like 20 people are  but whatever you know I wanted to I wanted to try   to be really consistent for that. So I think that  did help having like some outside accountability   that I that I created in my mind. Was that why you  went into it or was there also the element to to   sort of rank really highly as well? Yeah I wanted  I wanted to I wanted to compete. I wanted I mean I   wanted to to do as well as I could. Um you know I  I didn't go with the expectation of winning or or   uh or or having a huge result. It was just  to trade my plane and and and do as well as I   could really. Well hey last year it all as you say  compounded. This is interesting because you know   you you made that clarification at the beginning  which I think is extremely uh fair and you know   very open of you because it's easy to hear that  right and think oh yeah you know every year is   like this and I think that's a misconception a  lot of people get they see a snapshot of a year   results or of one person's success and think that  that's just a constant flow like what's the what's   it been like this year then trading you know  because we've seen crazy changes in conditions   probably three or four different times this year  and it's still ongoing now which is a classic   Trump market I guess. But what's it been like  this year for you then trading? It's been going   well. I I did enter the USIC again. I entered  in the million-dollar division and uh October   results aren't out yet, but I think it's like I'm  I'm of 162% year to date and uh but I'm in a draw   down right now. So maybe it's more like 140 or or  give or take for November. Yeah. And and that that   draw down's enough where I've se uh significantly  curtailed my risk. So now I'm trading microscopic   size until conditions change. I think I've lost  maybe 24 out of my last 28 trades give or take.   So at this point I I slam the brakes and I'm not  going to draw down any more than that. So let's   talk about the you know trading specifically then.  Sure. In terms of like what sort of trading are we   looking at in terms of time horizon wise? Are  we looking at sortterm, medium-term? Right. So   so I I uh I'm I'm very meticulous in my my  records and I know them. So I can tell you   uh my win rate is about 33%. My average winner is  about 15 days. My average loser is about 1.9 days.   My average gain is about 15%. My average loss is  about four and a half%. Uh my average win is three   and a half times my average loss. Yeah. Let's take  a break for a minute there, guys, cuz I want to   tell you about our sponsor, Trade Zela. Tradezella  is the number one trading tool for all traders.   Doesn't matter whether you're a crypto trader,  a futures trader, or a forex trader, whatever   trader you are. All you do is connect your trading  platform directly with Tradzella. automates and   makes your trading journaling so easy. If you want  to be a profitable trader, you need Trading Edge.   And that is exactly what Tradeseller does. It  allows you to identify edge, maintain your edge,   and optimize your edge by automating your trade  journaling, in-depth analytics, back testing, bar   replay, and so much more. Now, W gets you 20% off  your yearly subscription with Trade Zeller. So,   use W for 20% off your yearly subscription or RZ  10 for 10% off your monthly subscription. The link   is in the description below. Now, let's get back  to this episode. Very specific, very meticulous   as you say. That's very interesting to me. Is that  something that you've only developed more recently   or maybe last year or have you always been I've  always been like that like near OCD levels of of   of record keeping. The same thing with poker. I  would I would really go into my uh So, so there's   software that tracks all the hands you play  online. So, I would go into that and really dig   in to see how I play and how I deviate from uh the  player pool. It's fascinating you say that because   it's been quite a common I wouldn't even say it's  a debate, but there's been different takes when   it comes to data collection and how important  what the impact it can have on a trader. So,   it's very interesting to hear you say that you had  this meticulous data mindset, if you will, but you   still had those ups and downs. Right. Right.  Because surely well my thinking or the general   premise is that if you have the data you can  observe the data that emotional and psychological   aspect doesn't disappear but is alleviated  slightly because you have something that   you can specifically go here's what the average  looks like if I stick to this then right you know   overall expect uh expectation of results should  be there right right so what was the disconnect   right so you know one of my favorite quotes about  trading trading it's simple it's not easy So,   uh, you know what you should do, but executing is  a whole another thing. Um, I think most traders   that struggle, they know what they should do, but  it's actually doing it. It's like, uh, you know,   playing a sport, playing tennis, right? Well, how  do you play? Well, you hit the ball as hard as you   can, al alternating into the two corners, right?  Now, go do it. Well, that's a lot harder to do   than than to be told what to do. It's same thing  with trading. Knowing what you need to do and then   actually executing it. It's to a non-trader. It  it seems like it's, you know, it's so simple. It   is simple, but it's it's extremely difficult to  do that when uh you your emotional, psychological   being is almost designed to do the exact opposite  of what you need to do in trading. And so you said   there that your average loser is 1.9 days, did  you say? Yeah. The average holding time. Yes.   Holding time. Sorry. So in terms of that, did you  notice when you were having these such, you know,   violent swings in P&L and the lack of results and  consistency, were you noticing that your losers   were what far beyond the average loser that  you were having, especially the ones that were   causing the outsiz risk? Are you holding them much  lighter? So it actually wasn't the losers that   were killing me. It was more that my winners, so  in a negative market environment for my trading,   um, my winners get really smaller and my win rate  drops. So instead of my win rate being, you know,   33 to 35%, it might drop to 25. And my average  winner, instead of being three and a half times   my risk, it might be two times my risk. And  that right there, if you do the numbers out,   that you're no longer winning with those stats.  Oh, and just to clarify, I I'm I'm describe myself   as a swing trader. So my, you know, my average  winner time is 15 days, but, you know, I'll   occasionally have one that lasts for several weeks  to months, but those are those are uh welcome,   but infrequent. Would you say those ones end up  being quite an outlier in terms of its overall   result in the end? Yes. Yes. I'm I'm I'm like a  big game hunter. I'm going for out outlier wins.   I'm I'm going for home runs when I when I trade.  Yeah. And like you said, they will be infrequent,   but when they happen, which is interesting because  then when you look at the win rate of 33%. A lot   of people would hear that and be like, "Oh my  god, that can't be profitable." But then when   you compare that to and it's very interesting  though as well, just to go off the back of what   I just said, many of the verified traders seem to  have they don't really focus on win rate. focus   on the quality of trades and then getting those  outlier returns and those trades, right? So, just   going back to that then that's what allows you to  do that, right? That's what makes it profitable   is that you have a 33% win rate but those outlier  returns those infrequent trades. What is the on   average is there like a a sort of average number  per year you've seen? Obviously, it will depend on   conditions I imagine. Of course. Yeah. So, 2024  there were more. So, it's really the quality of   the year. It depends on how many names are up  a lot. I mean, you want to see ideally 20, 50,   100 names up triple digits or more. It just  increases the chances of you cashing one. Um,   so this year, I think I have I've taken about 400  trades, you know, and I do overtrade quite a bit.   Uh, but I've taken 400 trades, give or take, and I  want to say I've had 10 trades that were uh 10R or   greater. Wow. And if you remove all those trades,  I'm I'm not winning. I'm like break even. Wow.   So So yes, it's like a few trades make up all  the wins. Everything else kind of cancels out.   Do you have the mindset at all of trying to, you  know, really only trade those 10 trades or what's   the reality? Uh, if I if I knew which trades were  going to be the big winners, then uh, you know,   the game wouldn't be called trading, be called  winning. Uh, but but uh, but but no, I mean,   I I don't know. That's that's why it's that's the  uncertainty I talked about earlier. You just don't   know. I mean, I I certainly think certain ones  might have a better shot and I and I'll size up   and I I tend to be better at picking those, but  even the one when I size up, the win rate's still   not much higher than my normal. Maybe it's like  40% when I have more conviction, but it's not   uh not excessively higher. So, how do you how  do you go about knowing when to size up then?   Is there certain parameters that need to sort of  coincide and and align before all that happens? It   it's more experience. It's uh you know, the way  I trade, you know, I I I trade very similar to   uh you know, Christian Qualagi. you know, he's  like maybe one of, you know, the best traders   of the last or may probably ever um you know, Mark  Vandervini, I I use his uh VCP strate or you know,   Willie O'Neal, how to make money in stocks. I, you  know, the cup and handle VCP that's that's what   I look for in leading stocks and in qualamagi  and stock bees episodic pivots. So, those are   the ways I trade. They've worked for the last  hundred years. They'll they'll very likely work   for the next hundred years because they they uh  because they it works off human behavior. I mean,   it's it's really like the her you're trading u  uh that doesn't make much sense, but but they've   just they've always worked and and and they're  very likely to continue to work. So, those are   the setups I use. Um and and and the start of the  question just in regards to being able to is there   any sort of reoccurring or certain alignments that  you need to see to size up because of course as   you mentioned that you know you haven't been able  to only trade those which makes sense as well but   in terms of being able to then size up your trades  which then I imagine is what allows you to sort of   really exponential juice the returns. Yeah. Uh  yeah when I have more conviction so you know I   want names at alltime highs. I I I I prefer buying  names when they they move into all-time high   territory. Ideally, when they gap into all-time  high territory. So, uh Nvidia in early 2024 would   be an example of that. SMCI in early 2024. There's  a trade earlier this year in Inimemed INSM that   uh gapped into all-time high on a positive  drug trial. So, yeah, when the stock moves   into all-time highs, um ideally when it hasn't  hit an all-time high for months, if not years,   uh on large volume and with a huge price gain,  I I prefer gaps. I prefer a gap of, you know,   15 to 20% or more into alltime highs when I when  I buy. What's the uh the sort of mindset behind   that then? Is it to expect some exponential growth  and sort of some euphoria kick in? Uh more so that   uh well, the way I think of it is that you know  when a stock's moving to all-time highs, you know   what why would someone pay a higher price has  ever been paid in the history of the stock? Why   would someone do that? Well, because they think  it's going a lot higher. I mean, that's that's   that's really why um and a lot of people I speak  to, they they they won't do that. They're they're   very uncomfortable buying highs. So, I think  to be a really successful trader, you have to   be willing to do things that other people cannot  or or will not do. Uh Tom Huggard, I believe his   name is. Uh yeah, he he speaks about that in best  losser wins that normal doesn't win in trading.   Like there's a reason why 90% plus people who try  to trade don't make it. you know, they're normal,   welladjusted professionals, but normal doesn't  pay in trading. You have to do things that others   won't. You have to cut losers. You have to add to  winners. You have to uh, you know, do do a lot of   things that are very psychologically difficult  that go against our our nature as human beings   uh to be successful as a trader. I've heard you  talk about in terms of like one of the skill sets   that's really helped your trading is being able  to know when to quit. Yes. And is that something,   you know, that you've really instilled and  then been able to develop as you've gone along?   Yes. So that that was probably that was the key to  me really taking my poker game to the next level.   It took me probably seven years to figure that out  in poker that that learning to quit like that's a   skill that's a skill you have to learn and develop  and and that took my game to another level in   trading that took me seven years to figure out to  learn how to quit. Um, and does that ever confuse   you of like you learned it essentially in this  profession and then it took you almost the same   time to get you think I'd have learned it a lot  faster but uh sadly it I I didn't you know maybe   I'm a slow learner. I mean I I think it you know  the guys that can do this at a really high level   in only a few years. I mean to me that's that's  wild. I mean I've I've been doing this you know   this game you know poker trading that you know  they're so similar in terms of managing risk and   and dealing with money and emotions. It took it  took me a long time to get it, but uh you know   once you get it I mean you know the potential is  uh really unlimited. It truly is. It truly is.   And it's fascinating then so when you look at you  have these AAR setups if you will that will happen   infrequently. What do these setups in between then  look like? Are they kind of your base hits keeping   you sharp keeping you in the game and allow you to  then when the because as you said you can't really   identify you know a key metric and difference  between the trades right? So you're allowing   yourself to essentially just always be ready and  then whenever that trade comes along, it comes   along and you're prepared for it. Yeah. With 400  trades in and it's only November or so I mean I   I do a lot of trading probably I would say 50 to  100 of them I I could just I shouldn't even take   uh so you know look I I still have mistakes I make  constantly and I'm always trying to reduce them.   So you know the overt trading that's something  every year I'm like you know let's let's trade   less. But uh you know easier said than done but  at least I I keep those trades much smaller now.   Mhm. Um, you know, again, I I don't I mean, I  have my, you know, fivestar setups or, you know,   A+ setups and I and I do size for them, but, uh,  sometimes the ones that I don't think are A+,   sometimes they work, you know. I I I just I just  don't know. I mean, that's that's the thing with   trading. There's just so much uncertainty and and  then that's really the game is is is dealing with   uncertainty. You're just you're just constantly  dealing with it. I guess it's one of the hardest   things that you know any trade not even traders  but humans face is uncertainty because we it   creates that discomfort and all we ever crave  is comfort and safety and when you're putting   yourself in essentially you're putting yourself in  that flight or fight response when you're entering   trades you're putting yourself in danger you're  putting yourself in danger and uh you know the   mind and body they don't they don't know that it's  it's not a lion leaping at you in the savannah   it's like it's it's just it's just it's just money  but what money represents to people I mean it it   is like life or death I mean money really does  trigger those same emotions uh that that uh you   know our ancestors faced out you know 100 thousand  years ago or you know however long ago uh out in   the wild. So no it triggers something primal and  and that's why it's so hard. You have to be able   to overcome that and and then that and that's  why it's so hard. Yeah. So especially during   that period you know of the the highs and lows you  know not really finding that consistency is you're   you're putting yourself through and especially  400 trades a year. putting yourself through   quite frequently, you know, this fight or flight  response which can very easily be very dangerous,   right, to your health and to overall well-being.  How have you managed to create a separation? How   have you managed to look after yourself so that  you can turn up each day and perform at your best?   Yeah. So, I I uh I I I eat very healthy now. Uh  I haven't drank in in a very long time. I cut out   alcohol. Uh I exercise religiously. I play tennis.  I try to play five times a week and uh I go to the   gym, I run. I mean, you have to do a lot to try  to keep the stress at a manageable level. I mean,   you really need to treat yourself almost like  you're a professional athlete in terms of taking   care of your body uh which in turn takes care of  your mind. There's a great book called uh the Hour   of the Wolf, I believe. Um but it talks about how  the mind and the body, we think of them as two   separate things, but they're really one. They're  really one and the same. and uh that really opened   my eyes to just how much uh of an impact uh  the body has on the mind and and vice versa.   How long in terms of like during that period  of time to find your consistency in trading,   was there a period of time where you weren't  really focused on those things or was it prior   to that actually before? Yeah, I I would say now I  mean as I've gotten more consistent with trading,   uh I' I've gotten better with everything.  I I started playing tennis maybe year two   of the trading journey. Um, and then I I I  started exercising a lot more the last two   years. And you know, trading it's I watched this  really great YouTube video by uh I think Oliver,   Olivier. He's like I think he's a Brazilian  trader, but it was about how you know by by   trying to be a trader and trying to become a a  great trader, you it almost makes you a better   person because the skills required to be a good  trader, the discipline, um you know, they're just   they're just so helpful. like when you uh when you  work out, it's really I mean it's just discipline.   I mean, anyone can do it. You don't need to be  a super athlete to go to the gym and and lift   weight. You you can be quite uncoordinated and and  still do it. So, it's really at the end of the day   is it's about it's about discipline and and and  he made a great point about a stop losses, right?   What's a stop-loss? A stop-loss is just a promise  to yourself that that you're going to do it. Like,   no one's making you do it. You know, there's  no rule saying you have to have a stop loss.   You have to have it. You have to implement it. Um  and you know and that uh you know the market is   uh the market is just chaos. The market is random.  There are no rules. There are no laws. You have to   impose your own on it. Um and then you and then  you have to follow through with it. You know,   so many traders, you know, the stock moves down  to their stop and they pull it because the last   time they they they took the stop, the market  the price went back up, you know, and uh nine   times out of 10, if you pull your stop, it it  might it might work, but that one time you don't   um it it it's going to hurt and it's going to make  up for all those for all those uh other uh gains   that you had. Do you think it's possible to not  be disciplined outside of trading and still be   disciplined trader and then perform really well?  That's a great question. I mean, I'm sure there   are guys that do that, but I think in general, you  know, discipline is it's like a skill. It's like a   muscle you build. And I think if you're if you're  disciplined enough to be a successful trader,   I mean, what do you think is more challenging?  Getting in shape or being a successful trader? I   would say getting um being a successful trader.  Okay. So, if you can do that, clearly you have   the ability to do anything else. Like it's it's  all mental. I mean, being a trader, you know,   I I was talking with another trader about this  about how uh being a trader is almost like being a   professional athlete. is they're both performance,  you know, performance sports really. But with a   professional athlete, right, I mean, if you're  not in the top 01% in terms of physical talent,   like you don't have a shot. You have, but you need  both. You need to not only be physically talented,   but also be mentally incredibly uh uh tough. With  trading, there's no physical element. I mean,   there is in the sense that you need to be well  rested, you need to be hydrated, you know, all   these other things. But it it's really a mental  sport. And and that's why it's so uh enticing   because anyone can do it and and be on like a  you know a near level playing field. You like   if you're not 7 feet tall, you know, really tall,  you have no shot of playing basketball. But your   height doesn't matter in trading. Your strength  doesn't matter. Your speed doesn't matter. None   of that matters. It's just it's purely mental.  Traders, let me tell you about the best CFD firm   in the industry, Alpha Capital. Alpha Capital  has every option a trader could possibly need.   From one step to two-step to three-step  challenges. Whether you want a 6% target,   8% target, or even a 10% target. Whether you want  to trade on DX Trade, C Trader, MetaTrader 5,   or even Trade Locker and exclusively Alpha  Trader. Now, at Alpha Capital, you can get up to   $400,000 in max allocation. 200k per strategy can  be applied and no better place to trade CFDs than   a firm that has paid out over $100 million. Now,  here at Words of Wisdom, we have been partnered   with Alpha Capital for over 2 years and they've  given us an exclusive discount. Use the code RZ   at checkout for 20% off all challenges. The link  is in the description below. Now, let's get back   to the episode. I really the biggest comparable  is the preparation and the process right and   that's where like you said you don't necessarily  there's going to be the outliers of people who are   not disciplined in their everyday life and they  perform well as a trader extremely rare I mean I   I would I I think you'd be hardressed to find any  I mean maybe there's a guy out there but for the   most part that that discipline it it's just going  to bleed over into every aspect of your life it's   almost impossible to be a successful trader and  not be extremely disciplined and then if you're   disciplined there you know we know how hard it  is we know how hard it is to be a successful   trader. So if you're disciplined enough to do it  in trading, you can do it in any aspect of your   life for sure. You mentioned that you have always  had this really, you know, strong self-belief,   you know, and almost delusional as you said. Yeah.  But was there at your lowest moment in trading,   was there ever a doubt at all that seeped in  of like maybe just maybe this isn't even if it   was fleeting? Um, I had the mindset I I think  back to uh I think is in one of Mvini's books   about like mindset secrets for winning where uh  when the uh Spanish concistadors came to Mexico,   right? And uh you know they made it here, they're  hacking their way through the jungle and it's like   there's mosquitoes, you know, it's like it's like  it's it's a zillion degrees. It it's miserable,   right? And you know some of the men are like gez  like the boat's right there like why let's go back   home. This place sucks. So, so what did uh I can't  remember the name of the of of the leader of them,   but uh what did he do? He burned the ships  down. So, all you could do was go forward. So,   I I had that mentality that I I was I was I was  not going to stop until I made it happen. Um so,   did I have doubts? Uh maybe sometimes, but but  it was like it it didn't matter. I I was just   going to keep going until I made it. It was just  the heat of the emotion in that very very moment   for a second. Then I I just I just believed  I that's what I would say. Do you think that   that is necessary to be successful especially  in this game something so different 100% you   have to be fully committed. There's no way you  can just kind of do it part-time and expect to   have super performance. It's just not going to  happen. You have to be extremely competitive,   extremely ambitious, extremely driven. If you're  not then then I would say do something else   because the odds of you making it are ext you know  so low it's it's not worth it. Do you think that   you have to be passionate about the process and  trading in general, the markets rather than the   money? Because a lot of people I know or I've  spoken to in the past more so, they one, a lot   of people focused on the money side of things when  it comes to trading. Yeah. And two, I've met a lot   of people where they're getting into trading, but  their real passion is something else, real estate,   some other business, and they're thinking trading  can be the thing that can give them the finances   to be able to do that thing. Interesting. I I  think the money obviously is what entices people.   Um the love of the game is what keeps you here. I  mean, there are a lot of traders that uh you know,   they trade for a bit and they're successful and  then they they leave to do something else because   it wasn't really their passion. Um if you want  to have long-term success at the game, I think   you need to be passionate about it. You need to be  very competitive in regards to the passion for the   markets, right? Yes. I think the money brings you  into the game and then you you just you just have   to love it. I mean, you you just love it. But  but but but if you focus purely on the money,   obviously that's a large aspect of it. But when  you're in the act of trading, if you're focused   on the money, you're going to struggle. You really  have to focus on the process and uh trading well,   like executing your plan, not not focused on the  dollars and cents. One thing you mentioned earlier   which was interesting, which again goes against  the conventional mindset of the average person,   is buying at all-time highs, right? When you're in  that position, then what does the take profit look   like? How are you calculating that? what's the  thesis or process behind taking profit because now   you have nothing to the left to work off in terms  of you know oh we've hit this resistance level or   we've hit this area of congestion so how do you  go about formulating especially to get those huge   outsized trades right cuz I can imagine once you  get into no man's land it's very easy to go okay   got cut here cuz we could any little slowdown  of any kind could be considered okay this is   it so what is your thesis or mindset or process  to be able to maxim optimize and milk and juice   that trade as much as possible. Yeah. So, I use  trailing stop losses. So, I'll use uh excuse me,   I'll use a trailing, you know, 10, 20 or 50  day moving average uh as my trailing stop. If   you go back and look at the historical charts  of the biggest winning stocks ever, you know,   a Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, uh Google, Amazon,  Nvidia, draw a horizontal line over every all-time   high where there's no new high made for at least  uh say 6 months to a year and then see what   happens after they take out that high. you you'll  see that the price keeps going up and and you can   do that for you know any stock that's made a lot  of highs like the winners keep winning. I mean,   it's really a winner or take all game in in in  trading, you know, what do they say? The top 1%,   you know, they win all the money. In poker, it's  the same thing. In in professional sports, it's   the same thing. In business, it, you know, I mean,  look at Amazon. I mean, it's the same everywhere.   It's winner take all for the most part. So, um  yeah, you know, the winners keep winning. So, when   you're buying a stock, making an all-time high,  you know, clearly they're doing something right.   So, in terms of take profit, yeah, you I use a  trailing stop because you you just never know   how far they can go. I I've sold so many times. I  mean, I still, this is probably the hardest part   is uh selling too soon. You buy a stock at an  all-time high and it goes up and and you think   it's, you know, I I think there was a trade this  year, IN is like a Bitcoin miner turn data center   play and I bought it in the, you know, around 2122  and uh it it it more than doubled. it it rallied   up into the 50s and it pulled back a little and  I sold it but it did not trigger my trailing stop   and then it it it kept going up and uh I think was  up 100% in three months which you know fantastic   gain and I just I I couldn't believe it and  and and this has happened you know many times   throughout my career unfortunately it'll probably  happen again although I'm I'm trying to be better   about it but uh but yeah I I I I use a trailing  stop. So when something like that happens, even   at this stage, is there any sort of repercussions  or baggage that you then take on in almost like   trying to chase that potential? Yeah. Yeah, that  that'll cause tilt for sure. I definitely forced   some trades uh out of frustration for for not  exiting when I should have. No, I mean I mean   that's really the danger is is the uh is the is  the mistakes compounding. You know, you want to   compound gains, not mistakes. So if you if you  make a large mistake and selling a winner too soon   uh if your strategy is to hold winners longer uh  is definitely a large mistake it can definitely   compound other errors. How do you catch yourself  those in those in those moments now? So in real   time how are you able to or are you able to catch  yourself okay I'm making mistakes or here I'm on   till right now like what does that look like for  you? Is there a process you have in place? Well,   at at this point, I I realize now if I feel  a strong emotion, right? Anger, frustration,   there's a reason for it. And and and the  question is why? Is it because you made a trading   error? You know, like you weren't supposed to sell  and you did. Is it because you lost money? Well,   if I have a losing trade, but I execute, if I did  everything right, that doesn't really bother me.   It's when I it's when I make an error and I and  I know I made an error. So uh so so that's so   it's really a higher level of self-awareness  and self-reflection and that's from you know   trading for a long time and and and journaling  and recording my thoughts and feelings and uh and   and and recording my trades and and and seeing uh  when I you know do things well and when I don't if   that makes sense. Is there ever like a reoccurring  theme you've noticed where maybe you're outside of   your usual routine, maybe some outside event,  uh maybe obviously having multiple children,   having a bad night's sleep or rest, uh maybe an  argument with the partner, maybe a unfortunate   event that's taking place. Have you ever noticed  a correlation between these things happening and   then being off process or yes, your ability to  follow your process diminishing? Yes. If I if   I don't play tennis in the morning, sometimes I  find myself overtrading. If I don't go to the gym,   I end up staring at the screen and and taking  trades I shouldn't take. Yeah, for sure. How   have you tracked that sort of theme to be able  to notice that? I I've just noticed it where,   you know, normally I'm not at my computer around  noon and then I'm I'm there and all of a sudden I   find myself entering trades and it's like there's  there's no setup. You're just you're just buying   it just be just because like that that's that's  not your entry. What are you doing? So So no,   I mean I I still make mistakes. I still make  mistakes. Everyone still makes mistakes. I talked   to other traders that are, you know, verified  big winners and they constantly make mistakes,   too. We all make mistakes. It's just we keep them  to a minimum and we don't let them compound too   much and we don't uh size up. You know, you you  have a few bad trades, you're until it's the   sizing up after that to try to make it back faster  that that kills that just kills traders. So, you   mentioned like potentially 50 to 100ish trades,  you know, sort of being outside a process or,   you know, really shouldn't be there, right? So,  is your goal or one of the things that you focus   on year after year trying to just diminish  that number down as much as you can? Like,   as you say, we're human. They're never going  to be completely gone, right? But is your goal   to take that say from 100 down to 75, 75 down to  50? Just slowly reduce that number of trades. Yes,   for sure. I mean, that's the goal. The goal, you  know, every year try to get a little bit better,   try to reduce the mistakes. I mean, when I look  back at, you know, my career, I look back at my   spreadsheets and look at the trades. just every  year just you know just a little bit you know just   fix a few things a few things and then and then  before you know it it's like you go from losing   to profitable and then it's like wow I'm really  profitable and then I'm hugely profitable just   just from a few a few tweaks I mean that that  really you know it obviously depends on the   trader but but that's what I would say I I also  wanted to point out that you know I I've had the   the pleasure of speaking with a lot of traders  after after the result a lot of traders reached   out with a lot of questions and uh the one so I  I noticed several recurring things with traders   is that and these are these are almost all swing  traders with longer time frames. So the the thing   I I say to traders to try to improve there is  like do you track all your trades? Okay. So so my   anecdotal story is I went to a trading seminar and  uh with Mvini Master Trader Program great program   um and he asked at the start how many of you here  record your trades how many of you can tell you   tell me like your average gain average loss and  your win percentage right and it's like 10% of the   crowd raises their hand. And I'm like shocked.  I'm like what you know this is like a this is   an expensive site. This is not a cheap seminar.  This is expensive. And in in in one of his books,   it's like, you know, one of the chapters, this is  the most important chapter. Record all your trades   and review them. And you know, less than 10%  actually did that. So, and I reiterated that in   an earlier interview about how how important it is  to do that because then now you can now you have   the data where you can go back and say, look, if I  used this trailing stop-loss as my trailing stop,   you know, how would my results differ? If I  if I sold 5 days after I bought, you know,   into strength, how would my results differ? if  you know you can tweak your numbers and see you   know you can you can back test your own trading to  see how you can improve it and when people reach   out I ask them well well did you do that and no  one's done it and I'm like well this is you know   you can ask me for all the advice you want but at  the end of the day it's you know you're the one   trading you have to make the changes if you want  to improve you need to go back and look at your   trades and see if you what if you did differently  you know how would that affect the results so so   that that's that's uh that's that's my advice to  traders is record your trades and and go back and   see if if I change certain things, you know,  what what what would the results be like? And   also point out that uh that's really difficult for  guys to do because when you look at your trades,   at least for me, all I see are mistakes. You know,  obviously you have good ones, but you just kind of   gloss over them. At least I do. And I just I just  focus on the mistakes. It's like, wow, you know,   you you should have done this differently. You  like, why'd you do that? Why'd you do this? And   and it can be a really painful experience to  see all those mistakes there in black and white   like you know and and uh there's a great quote I  love about how h how does it go? It's um a man's   ability to grow is directly proportional to the  amount of truth he can take about himself without   turning away without looking away. So your trade  your spreadsheet it's like a mirror into into you.   You know your trades they're really reflection  of you. You know you can tell how disciplined   someone is. Look show them your trade spreadsheet.  I can tell you exactly how disciplined you are,   right? I mean, it's just all revealed right there.  And or the lack of spread or lack of, right? Of   course. So, you know, it's it's it's it's a  it's a really tough pill to swallow because,   you know, there's no there's no hiding or or  or or massaging, you know, the numbers are the   numbers. You know, you can't you know, you you can  make excuses all day, but at the end of the day,   you know, that's what happened. So, that's what  I would that's what I would advise. Don't know   where the market's going next? Stop worrying about  your trading. Just get informed on exactly what's   happening in the markets and what to expect.  From Forex to futures to stocks to crypto, be   on top of it all. That's why tens of thousands of  traders are subscribed to Market Journal, a free   newsletter that allows traders to keep up to date  with the markets every single week. Remember, an   informed trader is a profitable trader. It doesn't  matter if Trump tweets, AI stocks are pumping,   or if Bitcoin drops out of the sky. Market Journal  has you covered. Join for free today using the   link in the description below. Well, I'd love to  ask you something you just uh mentioned there,   like how you won't really look or dissect your  winners too much. Do you dissect? Well, no, no,   I do. But to clarify, I I noticed that the  negative ones more than the positive ones,   but no, I I didn't go through. Yeah, they stand  out to me more like the undisiplined ones strike   out stand out to me more for sure. It's probably  a good thing anyway, right? Because then it will   just hopefully held that level higher level of  accountability of trying to make those changes.   Well, and I also want to want to uh clarify  that, you know, if I have a big winning trade,   but I didn't follow my rules, that also will  stand out to me like, you know, I made, you know,   however much money like it should it should have  been more. So, so it's not it's not so much the   it's not so much results focused. It's more like  did did I follow the process? Gotcha. Something   I don't know if you know Steven Ducks, but Steven  Ducks has uh when he was on the podcast mentioned   that basically what he does is he compares  himself to, you know, the best version of   his system essentially. So the best version of  his system should have this result and he will   just compare like where am I at compared to that  right? So that's exactly what I do. So at the end   of the year I'll take or I actually do it in real  time now but okay I have my spreadsheet and I have   a spreadsheet that if I followed everything  perfectly and and how much do they differ and   often obviously if I followed my rules the results  would be much better and now I do that I update   that in real time so I can see what you know what  the profit gap is between what it should be versus   what actual execution is. Does that does that ever  have a negative uh sort of impact at Well, well,   you know, it's well, it's it's it's it's it's  frustrating, but it's also inspiring because   you can see, you know, wow, like, you know,  there's even more potential, right? So, you know,   I I try to while I am very tough on myself, I also  try to keep everything as positive as I can. Like,   rather than being discouraged, it's like, wow,  like, you know, there you have so much more room   to improve, right? Instead instead of instead  of beating yourself up too much. That's that's   I think that's an important distinction, right?  Because it's so easy. The reason I mentioned   that earlier or tried to just get clarification  which I'm happy that we got to is uh in terms of   if we're always only focused on the negative, we  never really think about actually how good we're   doing or where the good things are. So just as you  say there like it's inspiring but also can can be   like a wakeup call as well. Yeah. I also say that  you know I'm I'm extremely paranoid when it comes   to trading because I I know too many guys that  have blown up. Yeah. Uh so so yeah. Yeah. I'm   I I wouldn't say, you know, negative, but but  extremely paranoid when it comes to it because,   you know, in this game, you know, especially if  you trade on leverage, which which I do at times,   you know, you can lose a lot of money really fast  and those draw downs can happen really fast. So   So I'm I'm you know, it's Yeah, I'm I'm very uh  very uh cautious. I I should Yeah, probably the   best way to be, you know, in trading in general,  let alone uh especially as you say with leverage.   Just one question. Are you long only like are  you only uh long setups only? Right. I I well I   do short but 99 whatever percentage of my profits  have all come from from buying. Yeah. Well, what   would dictate a short to you? Like what would you  create that difference for you? Uh bare market. Of   course. You have no choice. Yeah. No, of course.  Um so in terms of uh process-wise, I wanted to ask   in terms of like you're meticulous with your data  collection. Yes. What does the review periods look   like? How often are you you know sort of diving  deep into that? Uh geez. I mean I guess every   every few weeks I I'll look. I mean at this point  now I mean I I I think most people know what they   should do. Like I said earlier, most people know  what they should do is just executing. So you know   I I know pretty quickly if I made a mistake or  not. You know it's like you know I had a trade   the other day where I entered and it's just like  I I didn't have any conviction because I I gotten   you know so many losers recently that I just  exited and it's like I should I shouldn't have   done that but I did. Shouldn't have exit. Yeah.  Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because it didn't hit my stop   yet. Right. So, um, with the review, you know, I  think it's more important when you're starting,   but at at this I mean, it's always important,  don't get me wrong, but at at this point,   it's it's more just doing what I what I know I  should do. And I've gotten a lot better at that,   but there's still there's still a gap. In terms of  making improvements then from dissecting the data,   is there specific metrics that you would  recommend people to be looking at or focused   on it all? Right. I I would look at yeah, your win  percentage, your average gain, your average loss,   and uh I you know, it depends obviously what  kind of trader you are. If you're a day trader,   a swing trader, a longerterm position trader,  you know, I I think uh most traders don't let   their winners run long enough. That that's been  my experience talking with other traders. Some   traders have shown me their spreadsheets and  I've gotten a chance to look at it and uh it's   incredible because um I think one guy was down I  want to say 15% year-to- date maybe in October and   if he if he had let his winners run so so I just  used a simple 20-day trailing at stop as his exit   for all of his trades. I just went in manually  replaced all of it and uh he would have been up   15% instead of down 15 just with that and he had a  lot I mean I could see clearly that he was revenge   trading and he was taking a lot of forced trades  a lot of a lot of poor entries so I mean think his   winner was only 25% maybe 26 but if if he had  simply and not I mean even with all those bad   entries if he just let the winners run it would  have been okay if he let the winners run and cut   you know like a third of the trades with with the  poor entries I mean he would have been up 50% or   more so it's it's often um really simple fixes,  but again, you know, the game is simple. It's   actually executing. It's doing what needs to be  done when you need to do it. That's really hard.   That's why the game's so hard. There's two things  there. There's two things there. So, we'll go with   the first one cuz it's in mind right now. Yeah.  In terms of executing it, do you think a large   part of that is really trying to get more present  in the moment of trading when you're in the arena   almost? Yes. Do you think that that's a large  part of that improving the execution? Yes. More   mindful. Absolutely. I I think a lot of traders  when they're trading, they're they're living in   the past or the future. And by that, I mean, geez,  I shouldn't have taken that trade yesterday. Oh,   man. I I had that loss from yesterday. You know,  I'm still down. I I I want to make back that money   I lost. I Oh, if I close this one out right now,  I made back that loss. But that's not the process.   The process is, you know, or at least for me, you  know, it's like I have to let my winners run. So,   if I'm constantly closing out winners to make  up for the losers, well, you you you can see   how your mind can play these incredible games and  tricks on yourself where it's like, well, geez,   but but that winner it might it might come back  and then you still have that loser. But that's not   that's not my strategy. My just let the winners  run. So, that's where you can get get in trouble   where you're you're just constantly closing out  winners for no reason other than to feel good to   to to cancel out those losers you had. So yeah,  I mean yeah being present and and you know the   trade yesterday's you know they don't they don't m  those losers they don't matter for this trade this   trade is you know it's a winner it's running  let it run it's like treating it every single   one independently yes yes but of course you know  but market environment matters right so like you   know if if you've had you know 20 losing trades  out of your last 22 clearly the mark the market   is probably very negative for your strategy so  you should be you know sizing down and reducing   trades so so there's always you know it's always  there's always context right I mean it really it   really it really depends on the envirment I  guess so that's what makes a difficult thing   because you have to be taking in multiple layers  of information, right? Almost at the same time to   decipher an output. Yeah. Which can be changing  dependently. And uh you know, it's hard. I think   human beings aren't as dynamic as that a lot of  the time anyway, let alone having to do it to   be able to make a career and make money at the  same time. It's really the experience. I mean,   you need so much experience. I mean, that's why,  you know, when people ask me, I I was talking   with a guy earlier today about about learning to  trade. I said, you know, you can probably learn,   you know, if you read the book, you know,  all the books on on on trading, you know,   how to make money in stocks, uh, secrets for  profiting in bull and bare markets, uh, you know,   a few psychology books, you can get that, you can  get a a winning strategy in in probably just a few   months. But then the experience to execute it when  it needs to be executed, that's going to take you   years. And and if you expect to make big money in,  you know, the first five years, I mean, look, it's   possible. Guys have done it. There are guys that  do that. They are the exceptions. They are not   the norm. I mean, the the norm is probably taking  five, six, seven, eight years, I I would imagine,   to really get it. To be fair to you, a lot of  those guys, you know, nothing to take away from   any of them, but I'm sure if you look into it,  some might just be amazing market conditions while   being able to execute, right? Possibly. I mean,  some guys are just naturally they just they just   get it. I mean, and and you know, they just have  they just have a high amount of talent, I guess,   is what you are they are the exceptions. That is  not normal to make a fortune trading in your first   three years. that is not normal that those guys  have exceptional talent. Um and if they tell you   otherwise that that's just not true. Okay. They're  they're exceptionally talented. Yeah. And just to   go back very quickly, you were talking about in  regards to you might have two issues, right? So   we're looking at uh allowing your winners to run  more and then you know cutting out some of the bad   trades that shouldn't be there. The tilt. Yeah.  Those are those are that's for me. Yes. Yeah.   But just in general, I mean, as well, when doing  that, do you think it's possible to try and fix   two things at the same time, or is it a thing  where you probably should isolate one problem,   fix that one, isolate the next one, fix that one?  Like, what do you think is the better process? Uh,   gez, you know, I I I try I try to do both at  the same time. I I mean, I I I like to think   I'm improving uh with with the cutting out  the the overtrading. That's tough. You know,   at least at least today when I o overtrade, I size  it really small. So, they don't really have that   much of an impact. although they just shouldn't  even be there with letting the winners run. Um,   you know, the what makes that so challenging is at  least with swing trading, you're constantly taking   losers. I mean, like my average trade, a losing  trade is like what, 1.9, you know, basically   two days, right? So, you put the trade on, you  get a stop, you put the trade on, you get stop,   but the winners, they keep going. But so you might  end up with, you know, take 20 trades. You know,   six of them are are winning and they're going  and and and you know, the other 14 stop you out   and those six they're winning, they're winning,  they win and then you get a market pullback and   they all pull back simultaneously, but they don't  stop you out, but obviously you're afraid they're   going to, but they haven't yet. So, and so,  but I mean that's why it's so hard. It's not,   you know, if it was just an independent trade,  you just put on one at a time and let it run,   it wouldn't be so bad. It's just that when they  all pull back at the same time and you and you   are faced with a large draw down open P&L, it puts  a lot of psychological and emotional pressure on   you to do something when you know the right thing  is to do nothing. And the thing is sometimes let's   say they all pull back and you do close them out  like you shouldn't do it but you do. Sometimes   they keep going down and they would have stopped  you out even lower. Yeah. So you're rewarded for   you know not following your process. Yeah. And and  most of the time that that may happen, you know,   fairly often, but when it doesn't keep going  down and they end up bouncing and keep going now,   now you've now your profit gap is huge. You've  left so many so much money on the table. And   then that's what that's what just that I mean,  that killed me before. I mean, that would just   drive me nuts. Yeah, I could imagine. Yeah, with  the element of that decision is there sometimes   experience you know involved in that in terms  of well that's why you that's why it takes years   because you go through that cycle a few times of  not following your process and being punished you   know either way and and and you learn o over time  you know I mean that's why you know with like the   risk like uh if you know in the market wishes  book so many of those guys blew up multiple   times before they got it they had to learn the  hard way to respect risk and you can read it in   a book but until you've experienced viscerally  what it's like to blow up and just you know,   sucker punched in the face by the market. Um, it  you really can't understand. I mean, a non-trader,   you try to explain what it's like, that feeling,  that uncertainty, that pain of losing, you know,   all those emotions. I mean, there's they're just  so powerful. Like, you know, I've never felt I   mean, I guess a heartbreak is the closest thing  I could say in terms of like the pain you feel   at times. But, but that is imagine getting your  heart broken just like over and over and over   again. I mean, that that's the closest thing  I can think of that that that what it's like,   the pain of of losing and losing big. Um so so  yeah that that's why it's the experience of going   through that several times to really you know  the pain the pain teaches if if you're willing to   listen. Have you always been swing trading or did  you ever try shorter term? Uh the the first prop   firm was day trading which which didn't work very  well and then the second prop firm was also sort   of day trading but it was uh your treasures but  but after that it was always it was always swing   interest to longerterm position trading. Yeah. Was  there a particular reason why you went that way?   uh you know the books convinced me that it was the  best way to do it and and and and I and I believed   it and then after you know after trading for eight  years and meeting a lot of guys and seeing a lot   of different ways you know the day trading that's  tough I mean that's really tough you know just   just by definition if you're exiting by the end  of the day you just can't let your winners run   that long I mean it's just you have a day or you  know maybe I don't know a few days at most but   uh you know with swing trading you can be in  position for weeks even months I mean I think   I'm in a position right now that's I've been in  for almost 5 months you know I'm just letting the   winner run. Um, so no, I mean I mean the goal  is I I I remember seeing this on YouTube that   uh you don't want to risk more than one bar,  you know, whether it's a 5 minute, 10-minute,   you know, 30 minute, you know, 5-second, daily,  weekly, whatever it is to make to make multiple.   I mean, you're trying to make multiples of your  risk. So, you know, for me, a lot of my entries,   I'm risking the low of the day. So, I'm risking  less than a bar, you know, one candle in order   to make multiples of that ideally. And then when  you're you're trading using a a moving average,   you said, right? So it won't be necessarily  the the previous day low or anything like that,   it will be the moving average. So you might have  some breathing room for it to continue. Uh well,   I used I use the low of the day. I mean, that's  why the win rate is so low cuz I cuz I keep a very   tight stock. No, I mean when you're managing.  Oh, managing. Yes. Yeah. I'll use I'll use the   moving average, but if it gets really extended to  the upside, then then I might use the low of the   previous day. I mean, it it depends. It depends on  the stock, depends on the environment. Yeah. And   then in terms of uh like sort of stock selection  like what does that look like for you? Are you   using a particular scanners? Are you looking  at you know sort of uh the theme of the market   as well? What's in play at the moment? Yeah.  So now after doing this for years I realized   it it's really thematic especially this year and  the last year. You know the AI and and anything AI   any derivative of that are the are the themes in  play. So, I've been really focused on those. And   um and then I look for the names up the most over  the last one, three, six months. I look for names   at all-time highs. Um I look for names gapping on  huge volume uh from from a from a news event. Th   those are really uh what I look at and and there  are scans for that, but they're not I mean they're   not particularly complicated, but yeah. And would  you say that you're heavily a technicalbased   trader or would you do you look into the sort of  fundamental side as well? Both. Both. I mean the I   consider the theme to be almost fundamental. Um uh  but I mean I obviously I would prefer the stock to   have you know sales and earnings growth up a huge  amount but uh you know you can have the greatest   fundamentals in the world but if there's no if you  know the stock's not at an all-time high or or or   going up. It it really doesn't matter. You I say  when people ask you know how I trade I buy stocks   going up. I mean that's really the strategy. You  buy stocks going up. It was interesting. I was I   was speaking with someone on the podcast recently.  I cannot for the life of me uh remember exactly   who it was but they were saying how you know  almost like Tesla for example is less so really   about just Tesla it's more so almost buying stock  in Elon right it's like this network effect so to   your point like you could look at the fundamentals  of the company if you're basing it purely off that   you'll miss out on probably a lot of opportunity  there you know similar with like if open AI for   example was to you know be able to have a a stock  that was floating IPO right it's coming I think   it would be the similar thing right where they  would people really wouldn't be buying it based   on fundamentals. They'll be buying it purely on  the the network effect of of people projecting   what that growth will look like. Well, I don't  think that's unique to Tesla or an open Well,   exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's everything everything  trades in the future. You know what what you did   for me yesterday, it has no bearing in the stock  market. Nobody cares. It's about what can you do   for me in the future. So, if you look at Tesla's  fundamentals, the earnings and sales growth,   they're they're they're not very good. It's about  I mean, it's about the future. It's about Optimus.   It's about the Tesla Semi. It's about all all  this future tech. Same thing with Open AI. I mean,   I don't know what their fundamentals are, but it's  it's it's the potential. You know, stocks trade   on their potential. I think Tesla's trading  at, you know, 100 times earnings, you know,   some crazy multiple, but but it's not about what  it's doing now. It's about what it's going to do   6 9 12 months uh in the future. Yeah. How much of  your trades are say, you know, there's something   that's a theme derivative of that theme? So even  if it's not like the key player, are there a lot   of trades that you'll try and find good R multiple  that are maybe even relatively unknown to most   people like maybe a non-trader would never hear  of that company, but yet you're able to notice,   okay, in the AI space or maybe the the sort of  robotics arena. Yeah, these are names that are   maybe not the leader because the leader's already  moved. Yeah. But here are ones that could follow   that leader and could be good opportunities. Is  that an element of your trades as well? Yeah,   if they're in the same theme and space, for sure.  I mean, I will I will look at anything that's in   is in it's is in that theme. So, ideally,  you want to be in the leader. Obviously,   if you're in a lagard, I mean, I guess if if  the name if a theme is strong enough, you know,   everything's going to go up a lot. I mean, maybe  the leader goes up 300% and the lagger goes up   250. Okay. Well, you know, I'll take 250. So, so  yeah. So, so anything anything in that theme for   sure. Yeah. I mean, you saw that this year in  the nuclear plays. Yeah. Uh in the, you know,   the Bitcoin miners turn data centers in the data  centers in uh you know, the chip makers. You know,   Nvidia, you know, AMD is a perfect example. That's  that's it's always been a lagard like forever,   but it it still had a huge move uh in Yeah.  recently. Yeah. So, yeah. In terms of that,   is your what's your mindset? Is your mindset  trying to identify a theme ahead of time or   are you just allowing a theme to sort of present  itself, start to see it, and then just jump on it,   jump on the sort of momentum. You you wait for  it to present itself. I mean, you can there are   fundamental investors that can get on the themes  before they really make themselves known. But if   you go back and study history of like the biggest  movers ever, they will show themselves. They'll   have some, you know, a huge day usually with a  huge price and volume advance and a gap usually   and and and they reveal themselves that way. The  market really tells you what what you want to be   buying by by going up so much. Yeah. Christine,  it's been an amazing podcast. I want to finish   up with one last question which I think would  be perfect for you. We've kind of touched on it   different themes alongside it no doubt but just  very very direct for those who found themselves   in your position you know where they were you know  really struggling up and down for many many years   um or maybe might be quite early into the that  part of the journey just give them your best   advice in terms of you know things that they  can do to to move forward the best advice in   terms of making changes and just sticking it out  right because no doubt at this point if you go   back you would remember maybe some doubts just  that really negative feeling, right? You know,   what would your message to them be? If you if you  can talk directly to the audience for this one,   because this is for them. Sure. Uh I I I would say  uh if you're if you're a new trader, start small.   It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's going to take  years most likely. Um don't beat yourself up too   much. It it's very very very hard to do. Uh and uh  always, you know, record your trades, see what the   mistakes you made, and stop making them. you know,  a lot easier said than done. Um, and it's about   incremental improvement. It's not going to happen  overnight. It takes time. You have to be patient   with the process, patient with yourself. Um, when  you make a mistake or you feel the strong feeling,   ask yourself why. Why am I making that mistake?  Why am I feeling that? You need to get to the   root of the matter. A lot of traders uh have these  psychological and emotional hang-ups due to trauma   experienced earlier in their life, the way they  were raised, some experience they had. it it it   it impacted them significantly and then they  play it out in the market. So you you have to   become a very self-aware of the things you do and  why you do them and and trying to get to the root   of it. For more experienced traders that have been  trading for a few years but are still struggling.   Um again review your trades, record them, ask  yourself, you know what, you know, what what am   I doing wrong? What I can what can I improve? If  I were to ask you, what three things do you think   are, you know, you're doing really well? What  three things do you think you don't do well? Well,   try to fix the things you're not doing well and  and and keep working in the things that that you   are doing well. Um, and just try to keep getting  better every day, every week, every month, every   year. And and if you keep doing that, you know,  eventually you you'll get there. It's it's it's   a long process. It takes a lot of time, but if  you can do it, it's incredibly rewarding. Um, I'd   encourage you to reach out to successful traders  and and ask them questions. I mean, most guys are,   you know, they're happy to share. I mean, I'm  happy to share. I'm happy to help. You know, I I I   do this really to to help people because I I know  how hard it is. You know, I did this and I I it   was it was absolutely brutal. I I know how hard it  is. So, you can reach out to me on on X, you know,   on Twitter and uh tweet tweet me and I, you know,  I'll do my best best to respond and and try to   help in any way I can. Love that. Well, links for  Christian will be in the description. Perfect time   to plug that. I've been reluctant to to do this  sort of segment at the end, right? only because   it's uh I don't know if it would work in our  space or it would work in our space but equally   it's a concept taken from a very popular podcast  called Diary of a CEO okay which is getting the   guest to ask ask the question of the ne next guest  essentially so you know someone said it to me like   oh you should do this you should do this and I was  kind of like but why not we'll give it a go with   the next guest is going to be here in a moment  anyway but Christian let's say if you had to   ask a question of a profitable trader right what  question would that be oh that's a great question   uh when Now we're keeping it. You see that? Yeah.  Oh, you know I mean I'm I'm always curious in   people's stories. I mean I would ask them about  you know I mean we already covered it but you   know you know how they got to where they got to  because you know it it's it's a it's a journey.   I mean it's a tough journey to get there. So I I  love hearing other traders journeys whe whether   they're profitable or not how they got to that  stage in life because to be a trader you have to   have a pretty high tolerance for risk. You have to  be entrepreneurial. You have to be a self-starter.   Have high level of self leadership. You know all  all these different traits which so most people   who do that they they lead pretty interesting  lives. So that's that's what I would ask. But   you already you're you're fine. Absolutely fine.  Well, um you know, normally how it goes is that   I would have had the you're the first one we've  done it with. So you get to be the first start of   the chain, the link of the chain, if you will, cuz  normally how it would go is I would ask you, the   previous guest, and then get the one from you for  the next. So you're the first in the chain. Maybe   one day we'll get to go full circle and uh come  back to you and we'll have a part two. Okay. Um so   yeah, Christian, it's been an absolute pleasure.  everyone at home. Again, links for Christine will   be in the description below. So, make sure you  check those out. Hit like, hit subscribe. Other   episodes are on screen. Talking of which, we did  do a chart fanatics with Stockby B aka Praep,   which is the found of the episodic pivots that  we've discussed a couple times on the podcast. So,   the link for that will be here. Perfect timing,  I guess. And until next time everyone, take