FCA-Regulated Trader: I went from -$35,000 to multi 7-figures Using THIS Strategy!

a trader who went from £35,000 in debt to being one of the few FCA regulated sevenfigure traders in the world. >> One of the things that I'm seeing is traders who got a high level of technical skill as a result of that. They think they know what's going to happen and then when that doesn't happen, it's like they're crushed. Yeah, but I saw a value gap with this happening and this happening. And there's nothing against that analysis, but you've put so much weight on it and the market's just laughed at you. Introducing Alistister Krooks, a trading veteran who's been in the markets for over 23 years, building a wealth of experience both as a trader and a professional trading coach. In this episode, Alli reveals why 90% of traders are looking for technical solutions to a psychological problem, the arbitrary income goal that unknowingly sabotages most traders, and he shares with us the 20% of mistakes that create 80% of losses along with how to fix them with data, not emotions. Three biases that I'm always getting traders to focus on is recency bias, confirmation bias, hindsight bias. They're the three. >> What would hindsight? The last one I'm not familiar with. >> So hindsight bias is you see the result of the trade and then you think you should have done something different. So I give you an example. So do everything right, the trade loses. You do everything right, the trade loses. Again, you do everything right, the trade loses. And now you're three trades down. First trade you're like, that's okay. It's only one loss. Stay focused on the process. Happens on the second trade. Happens on the third trade. The doubt is sitting in there because there isn't a frame of reference. Because what most traders don't have is they don't have data to lean on. If you know that three trade losing runs on the strategy you trade happens a couple of times every single month and on average that strategy is averaging 3 4 5% a month that makes it easier to then take trade four and stick to the process. >> I've seen a lot of traders who will be very disciplined with their journaling reviewing trades and back testing and they'll do that for months and months and never take a trade. And then you have the other side they just every week reload the accounts new profit new profit. Where is the arena to really master and learn? Is it in an environment of control, back testing and journaling, or is it in the environment of performance? >> Great question. >> Hey Titans. So, currently I'm on the road across the United States right now in Boston filming more wonderful episodes to bring to all of you. I just wanted to share before this episode with Alistister begins, every single week with the guest, we prepare a PDF known as the episode companion. And the purpose of this is that you have something practical, actionable notes that you can reference throughout the episode to take more away from each episode, more value for you. And secondarily, once you've completed the episode, it becomes an opportunity to reference back and keep all of the key insights of the episode with you forever. So, make sure you download the PDF that Alistister and I have prepared. And with that being said, sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. Let's take it away. Ladies and gents, welcome back to another episode. I'm joined by Ali. We just had a good friend of his on uh just yesterday. Uh so I'm I'm very pleased to have you here and um we have uh how many years is your career? >> 23 23. So we've crossed the two decade mark which not many do. Um and you've probably seen the rise and fall of many things the brokers to transitioning intowards prop firms now and uh the chaotic space the wild west that it can be. Um first of all I want to dabble into the social media side because you've um you've emerged online. You've built a built a bit of a personal brand. Um but you've probably also seen the influencer space change over the decades. Yeah. >> Uh first of all, social media and trading. How is that? >> Well, great great place to start. I think just initially to give your listeners an idea of how long I have been in the game, my first trade was placed on dialup internet. So yeah, some of the guys here won't even know how long ago that was. So uh to give it a perspective, yeah, YouTube was in its infancy. So the only really the only way you would learn to trade back then is you would have to pretty much get on a plane and go and do a course in the states or it was literally books um the odd PDF. So it was a very different a very different arena. So I've I've seen retail trading space from both the trading side and the social side just just explode. And I think I think the the biggest thing that I've noticed is that whilst everything's changed, nothing's changed. And what I mean by that is everything's changed in terms of speed of internet, access to information, the amount of good and bad information that's out there. Um, there's always been people, you know, there's always been snake old people out there, whether it's online or whether it's, you know, whether it's been live events, doesn't matter which way it is. >> But the interesting thing that hasn't changed, I think, is very much the psychology. I can remember going to my first Forex expo in London and seeing how many people were clamoring over the automated robot system that was there. Now back then that was just that was just a fancy indicator that somebody had built and made it look amazing. And interesting I was at the Forex show in London this year because the owner asked me to come and do a little round table and I was just walking around looking and it was the same kind of thing. they people were flocking to the the easy automated do-it-yourself system. Although it was very different in how it was branded, it's essentially the same thing. So, the thing for me that hasn't shifted is the psychology. The psychology of the masses out there is that they're still looking, I think, for a quick fix. And and I get that if you if you've if you don't know, you don't know. You'll think, "Oh, this looks nice. This looks this looks highly um expert or technical and this could be a great thing for me." But that really that idea of people flocking to the the system or the easy option hasn't really changed. It's just I think the way that that message is being is being delivered. >> If we distill that down, we're essentially looking at people that, >> you know, if somebody wanted to become a doctor, they wouldn't be looking at ways they can quickly get through it and a shortcut. And you know, you'd be like, okay, I've got a journey ahead of me. I I got to learn it and I've got a whole process. But here, it's just like, okay, what's the easy way? What's the quickest way? And and it's speaking to the what's alluring people into the industry in the first place? And is that is that causing a downfall? Um when we talk about psychology which is is a topic I wanted to spend a bit of time on. >> We can start off with this portion of it which is what is your references or perspectives coming in? Um because it can be also men are usually involved in it and and men are very competitive >> and it seems like the industry amplifies that. What I mean by this is prop firms they'll put on leaderboards, they'll put on certificates. uh this is all for external validation and and if you're coming with an image of I want to be this trader that comes with a look an image and if your parents are seeing what are you doing your friends are saying what are you doing this all external validation helps so I want I want to start off with that with your experience of people you've seen come into the industry with regards to identity ego and uh if if they're giving the correct respect to the journey ahead >> um great brilliant brilliant brilliant sort of angle to look at I think one of the things I can remember I'll tell a little story is when IED I started training about three and a half years into my trading career. I think it was about three three and a half and I remember the company that I was working for and the guy I won't mention names. The guy said um um I've got um I've got a car for you this weekend. I'm going to hire you a car and it's a really nice Ferrari. I'm going to and I'm like wow obviously because I've done such a good job within within it for him doing the training and it wasn't what he wanted to do was do a photo shoot >> so that he could use that as marketing. And I'm like at that point I was driving an Audi A3 and I didn't mind because at that point it wasn't about how much how what car I drove. It was about building my wealth and having the independence. Yes. >> And I left that training company because I was like I'm not doing that. >> Now if you think about it that is actually a micro element of what is happening in the industry now. It was a they wanted to create a perception that wasn't exactly true. And I'm not again saying that there are people out there right now that are blatantly lying. um they may have built that wealth from their trading or whatever it is. The problem even if they have is that then can potentially be the aspiration for the person watching it rather than thinking how do I become how do I become the person how do I learn the process how do I deal with the ups and downs that the Ferrari the Lambo the house whatever it is that is that is the result of what I've done correctly rather than if I actually super interesting because when you think of any typical career path you don't doctor and think okay what car does he have I'm going to become a doctor because of you know every career path you usually you do the career for what it is and then the byproduct can be the life you can build for yourself you know it's funny just a couple days ago I had a podcast with the guy and he's managing capital he's he's got obviously a track record verified as can be and he's an older chap and um after the shoot he was just kind of saying yeah I've been told by my team I should maybe go to Dubai and then maybe rent rent a supercar just kind of thing you know just to get the brand out there a bit and you can already see like that pressure is even on him and it's not his world, it's not his thing, but it's it's just he feels like if I don't I seem like I'm not not actually a trader which is phenomenal to even consider as a concept. Um but yeah, that's the pressure that the the pressure chamber that this industry can make. >> You if being completely honest, I will feel that at times you know I will look at it and I I remember I made the decision. I was like, I'm going to I'm going to sell all three of my watches and invest it into crypto because I wander around with a garment on all day and I like the fact it tracks my steps. But even when I did that, I was like, oo, I could feel it pinch my ego because I was like, but these three watches were ornaments. I like them, but they weren't serving me. Now, that's not a that's not a good or a bad thing. That was just a decision. But even I could feel myself being impacted a little bit. So, I get it that there is there is a pressure. I certainly felt a slight external pressure once I started trading other when I started trading um as a fund. Yeah. When I started trading other people's money even I because I have to report every single month for the same reason as that guy because you've got to have your track records in place. And I can remember just feeling a slight pressure that I hadn't felt for the best part of 15 years because it's always only been my own money. And and and at the end of the month, if I'm up or I'm down, okay, I know that I'm following my system or my process and it'll come good regardless of whether it's this month or this quarter or this year. But as soon as I had to report my figures, I was like, "Oh, okay. Oh, am I up? Am I down?" And it was the tiniest shift in my emotions. It didn't affect how I traded, but it I was like, "Oh, this is impacting my perception." >> Interesting, right? >> Yeah. Even after all the years experience I've had. And I thought to myself, I wonder how some of my clients feel. I wonder how some of these new traders when they've their subconscious has been bombarded with 20 lambos, >> not you know, all of these things. And again, nothing I don't see that as wrong, but if that's the only reason that they're getting involved, it will probably be a short short career because I never I never got into trading for the love of trading, but I soon fell in love with it. And I say to anyone that I work with or anyone that I speak to, if you don't fall in love with the process, it will probably be a short period because you'll burn out. You'll you'll you'll you'll you'll drive, you'll you'll break rules because you want you want the car payment, you want the new this, you want the new that. And again, there's nothing wrong with any of those things, but if they're the only driver that's behind somebody who wants to be in trading for 20, 30 years, they probably won't make it cuz they'll burn out. >> Let's take a moment to talk about a partner of the show, a leading prop firm that is funded. Next, it's important for me to listen to our community to see who are you working with and how can we make your experience better. And the main feedback I heard is trusted payouts, quick payouts, ability to scale, and affordable prices. And Funded Next has ticked all of those boxes. not only being a top three prop firm in the industry, but also having on demand payouts. And every 10% you gain on your account, you will double your capital for free. And because in this industry, trust and reliability is the most important factor, an important guarantee that they have is that if you do not receive your payouts within 24 hours, they will gift you an additional $1,000 to your payouts just for being late. So to unlock all of these benefits and work with a leading prop firm in the industry funded next, check out the link in the description or use the code to it. It's interesting because no one has a natural talent for trading or no one has a, you know, it's not a path put in front of you necessarily. It's not something that you see as a traditional route. So it's always something people stumble upon or find out about and the initial reason anybody would get in is like I want to better my situation cuz the current path is not serving me or I want to try this one out. So everybody gets in for basically money and then you end up falling in love and inevitably and and you would think from an outside lines on a screen some numbers and it's like that's not fun but it brings out everything the excitement the fulfillment it brings out a lot but I want to touch here and connect it to this thing called mimemetic desire meaning to say I want something I want a Lambo and the reason I want a Lambo is I think I want it because it's a cool car but maybe the reality is I want it because you want it and because that guy wants it and we all want it cuz we think everybody else wants it and we think that if I get it, you're going to think I'm cool. And and it just becomes this. It's not intrinsically what I want. It's all linked to my image and linked to what I think other people desire. And when you maybe end up in that position, you realize, okay, I've got it and I feel no difference. It can be a bit of an identity crisis, too. Um I want I want to speak about this idea of mimemetic desire because I think this industry probably heightens that as a whole and maybe trickles into your own trading activity. Um because if you're pursuing it for that reason and then it starts to not go your way, you're struggling as a trader, but you're holding on to this identity, it can maybe cause a bit of a disconnect. >> I think I think the whole the whole thing of the irony within the whole mometic desire is if nobody's ever going to sit down and go, you know, a group of you going to did you really want that? Well, no, I thought you really wanted it. So, it's one of those unspoken scenarios. I think what I think the key is is you've you you touched on it is you've got to fall in love with the process and if if if the goal is and it's on the vision board or it's you know you've got the model or it's what you want and that's the car um I try and put yourself forward and say okay in 20 years time what do I want to look back on and look back on with pride and I've been I've been there I've I've done the car thing and all of that and it's great and I'm not I'm not I'm not saying it's wrong but if you can look back and say actually what I want to be able to do is in in the if I go forward 10 years and look back, do I want to travel around with with huge amounts of freedom? >> Okay, if that's the number one priority, then that should be the thing that you focus on. If you can travel around with lots of freedom and have the Lambo, great. But be honest with yourself and go, if I go forward 10 years and look back, what do I want to be able to say that I have have done? And if it is have the green Lambo, great, go for it. But rather than thinking about it in terms of what everybody else is doing is jump forward and then look back. >> And I think a lot of time we don't we don't want to look back. We always want to look forward. But looking back when it comes to trading is one of the the best things you can do. Reviewing your data, reviewing your trades. So if you can't if you're not sure about that goal, jump forward. >> Look back and go, is that what I want to look back on in the last 10 years and that be the thing that I that I achieved? Because a lot of the time it's it isn't. When you really think about it, it's pro It it sounds it sounds tr but it's probably family, it's probably freedom and then the lam if the Lambo can fit in with that. Great. So then create a list of priorities and focus on the process and say how am I getting better as a trader from my process because everything >> in trading is downstream from executing and having a processorientated approach. The Lambo's only coming if you do everything right. The freedom to travel around the world is only coming. the time to take if it's just being around to take your kids to school or whatever it is, always being able to take the holiday if you want, doesn't matter what the goal is, but it's all downstream from your process anyway. >> So, yeah, I think what I think what is happening that is happening a lot more than people realize and I think all that happens with social media is that stimulates it. >> I think the crux of it is is the perception because the perception is this is easy and the perception is I can do this as a side hustle. The perception is that um with a little bit of money with prop firms I can make millions uh and therefore there's no earning ceiling. The potential is infinite and therefore the gap between what you perceive and what people's reality may be after one year which is a couple blown accounts and frustration. That gap is probably where people give up >> because they give up hope. Uh because it was a you know that uninformed optimism, informed pessimism, value of despair which a lot of people end up very quickly. >> When someone is in that state which I think a lot of viewers and people watching this kind of content that they they've committed but they haven't seen the results yet. Hence they're watching these things to better their situation. When they are in that said value of despair, what are certain things that they should hold on to or rewire? >> Great question. A lot of the time I get that's when I get the email is, you know, I I' I've tried this, I've tried that. You're I I I know I need a coach, but I've already spent 20,000 on other coaches or support systems. It hasn't worked or I've blown this much on my account. This is my last my last chance. So, I see a lot of that and I would say that it's not the same for every person because it often depends on what's got them there. But certainly once when they're sitting in that moment, I think the the fundamental issue that messes with a lot of traders mindset is that trading is easy from the point of view of you can place one trade and it can hit your target. You can do you can do everything wrong and still make money. You know, brain surgery, you know, if I go and do that next on Monday, it's probably not going to go well. But the ranked amateur can sit next to me for the next month and outperform me in terms of pure return on their money and not know what they're doing and have done everything wrong. And that can and that I think is what is constantly playing in that trader's mind. So you've got trader A who's done >> 10 courses. He's at it 10 hours a day. he's working his ass off to to make it happen and it's still not happening because 20% of what he's doing is or 20% of what he's not doing would give him 80% differential in his results. And then you've got the other person who is gambling and not following a set of rules. One minute they're, you know, they're they're risking one lot a trade, then they're risking five lots. They're all over the place and they're still not getting what they want. So, both of those traders are in a in a in a place of frustration. One's got a really good work ethic, but it's just not clear on the things that are missing. The other person's frustrated, but they're doing everything wrong. So, trader A, if I look at trader A and go, right, well, it's it's your system that needs work. That trader's already got work ethic. But one of the challenges that trader will have is, well, I'm putting in the time. I think I deserve it. Because if you think about people in a job, if people work hard in a job, you usually do okay. If you're if you're above average in a job, you at least keep your job and you'll get paid. If you're above average from a work ethic, dedication point of view in trading, you're not guaranteed to get paid. And I think that unwinding that subconscious belief that I've put the time, I've put the energy in um is important for that the trader that is is hustling hard and and it doesn't mean they should do the opposite and just sit back and do nothing. But once they can accept that the market doesn't reward my work ethic in the short term, I've got to make sure I've got everything right. I follow my process and there's a lag time for me to actually get to the point where I'm successful. >> Whereas trader B who's all over the place, they're frustrated because but that trader needs to sit down and actually start developing some frameworks and some rules. The challenge there is that's probably going to create more frustration because they'll sit there and go well normally I'd have taken that trade. I'd have guessed on that and I would have made money. Whereas now you've got to sit back and say no to those trades because they don't fit your they don't fit your process. Mhm. >> So there's this this whole mix and soup that is I think different. There are there are there are overriding rules, but every single trader when they're in a valley of despair has got to be able to step away and look and say, "Okay, what is it? What is it I know that I'm doing I'm doing well and what are the areas that I'm struggling?" Or, as I like to say, where are the blind spots? Because often it's the thing that you're just choosing to you're choosing to ignore. like you're putting in hours and hours and hours, but you're you're doing no journaling. So, you don't actually know when you're where you where your emotions are and where you're making mistakes. Or the other trader, it's you're jumping on everything that moves. You're not actually willing to sit down and say, "I'm going to follow a system." So, >> it's usually I think the generic answer would be it's you've got to examine your blind spots. >> I I think that's a productive procrastination where you're doing things that you should be doing. Like I remember when I was in university and I had to study. I go cook, I'd go do the dishes, I'd go do like I do all the other stuff apart from actually study. But then I've looked back and I've been doing stuff all day. Not the thing that moves the needle. I want to touch on the dichotomy you're kind of elaborating here on where wrong be sorry. Yeah, wrong behavior. I took a trade that I shouldn't take. I didn't know it was a wrong trade, but I took something on a on a one trade basis, positive outcome. If I take that same trade 10 times, maybe that was the only winner out of the 10. I only see the blind spot of one trade equals outcome. So bad behavior leads to a good outcome. I'm not supposed to do that. That's a that's a disconnect. Another disconnect is um I take a loss and I'm supposed to just accept that when in reality in a job and in a schooling environment I I get something wrong or I I I failed the test. I got to go back and do more. I got to go fix the the reason I took the loss is because I was not enough where in trading you've got to accept the loss because it's part of the game. How would you or how do you and did you get over that hurdle of truly accepting a loss for what it is or understanding that adherence to the plan despite it going wrong in this moment is the right thing to do? >> Great question. For me personally, and this is a thing I see on a regular basis with other traders, is that they have no frame of reference. So, let's say that you're in that example and you do everything right, the trade loses. You do everything right, the trade loses. Again, you do everything right, the trade loses. So, so now you're three trades down. So, what happens is it's a little bit like a needle. First trade, you're like, "That's okay. It's only one loss. I did everything right. Tick the box. Stay focused on the process." Happens on the second trade. Happens on the third trade. you've you've followed the process, but the doubt is sitting in there because there isn't a frame of reference. Because what most traders don't have is they don't have they don't have data on the strategy that they're trading. They're either not collecting the data on the trades that they take or they're not back testing the setups. And it's not that back testing is the holy grail and that once you've back tested a strategy, everything will be all right. But if you've got if you've got data to lean on. So if you know that three trade losing runs on the strategy you trade happen three or four times each quarter. Let's say you're a swing trader or it happens a couple of times every single month. And on average that strategy is averaging three, four, five% a month straight away. That makes it easier to then take trade four and stick to the process. So it's having an external reference. Often people say to me, what's the best thing I can do to improve my mindset? Well, have you got a frame of reference of the way you trade? Because if you haven't, you will get to a point where you're like, "Oh, oh, another loser, another loser, another loser." And I see this all the time with traders that they'll they'll come to me and they'll start they'll start trading a specific system or strategy. >> And they go, "Is everything okay?" And I'm like, "Yeah, we're just on the four trade losing run." But it's because they've started doing everything correctly. Their subconscious is going, "Well, now I'm doing everything right. I know logically I'm still going to have losing trades, but emotionally I haven't fully accepted it. So the more you can it's it's a it's a mental rewiring. It's every time it happens, go back and look at your historical data and go, "Yeah, I had a three trade losing run only two months ago." Chances are you've forgotten about it because in between that you've had ups and downs, profitable periods that you've we as humans we tend to like to romanticize the past and it's all about recency bias especially if what you're going through in the moment is negative and you forget that it's happened three or four times already this year. >> Uh so I think re the three biases that I'm always getting traders to focus on is recency bias, confirmation bias, and hindsight bias. They're the three I draw it on a you know have it on your wall as a trial hindsight. The last one I'm not familiar with. So hindsight bias is so recency bias as you know is affected by what happens right now. Hindsight bias is you see the result of the trade and then you then you you think you should have done something different. >> Okay. >> So I give you an example. So let's say you you say right I'm not going to take this trade because there's not enough clean air between my entry and the resistance the next perceived resistance level. So you don't take the trade. trade goes on, hits the resistance level, smashes through it, and with the benefit of hindsight, you say to yourself, I should have taken that because you are then focusing on the result. So, it's a, you know, confirmation bias, hindsight bias, very close in how they operate. So, then the next trade >> with the same scenario, the resistance in the way you take the trade, price hits the resistance, falls away, and then you you say, I shouldn't have done it. So, what happens is you go through what I call Yeah. You ping pong or Yeah, exactly. And you get stuck in that environment of rather than saying, "Okay, what's the rules on this strategy? What's the data to back that up?" And if the data says don't take it, then what happens on this individual trade is irrelevant, which again then desensitizes the recency bias that we all naturally feel. >> When you're referring here to uh having a reference, because that should be a reassurance uh in the moment that I've got this reference, so I know it should be okay. You can kind of refer to it like um public speaking where the first time you go on stage you just think you're going to die and it's the most intense thing. When you've done it 10 20 times you're like oh I didn't die and it's okay and and you've built confidence through previous reference points which I've understand what you're saying. Um but is that how someone will overcome uh psychological problems where if you take loss after loss after loss are you building trauma or are you building confidence to take the loss better? Um the the the one thing that won't do is it won't stop the what if. So let's say you look back at your data and your data's got three lots of four trade losing runs over the last last year and you're on four trade you're on you're on a four trade losing run. It won't stop you. Yeah. But what if this run's going to be worse? What if this is the time that it so the it won't necessarily stop that. It it could if the trader is if the it could create a traumatic response if the trader keeps losing because the risk then is they go well it's me it's what I've done oh it's my timing but again the the the issue there with the trader is at some point that's that bit where you have to step up and you have to the courage has to come in um you have to be able to over you have to just be able to suck it up I think that's the thing is there is no one solution. And I've had this with people. They go, "Ah, now I've got the data." They sort of go, "Ah, now everything's going to be all right." And then they go back into the arena because they've put too much weight on that reference point. It's as I the phrase I like to use is you can lean on it, okay? >> But don't but don't don't you know if you're fight if you're going if you're on a five trade losing run and there's no evidence of a five trade losing run, only four, you almost just have to laugh and go, "Well, that's just that's just what's happened." And if you're managing risk correctly, even if you are having a worse losing run than the data has ever suggested, you shouldn't put you in a position where you're going to blow your account or get in trouble. And another one is just lower your risk. Now, the challenge there is as soon as you lower your risk, that's when that's when the trades come good and then you're in a position where you're not maximizing on your profit. Okay, learned lesson. So the next time I go through a scenario like this, I don't reduce my risk. So that was a a reactionary scenario that probably wasn't the best thing to do. But if that meant in the short term as a new trader or newer trader, you were able to execute. I always say that the most important thing is can you execute in spite of what the result and you can flip that on its head. Can you execute when you're on a an eight trade winning run >> because for some traders, you know, that's that's a problem they don't anticipate. Exactly. So it's it's really when >> I always say you become a trader at the extremes. You become a trader at the extremes of a eight trade uh winning run or the best year you've ever had. That's potentially when you're most vulnerable. You become a trader when you've had an eight trade losing run or a four whatever it is or you've had your worst losing year. That's when you that's when the questions are asked positive or negative. And I think if the trader can get out of the en environment of the market, the market is just what's going on in your head. like you said it earlier, it's just patterns on a screen. There's nothing there's no stimulus. But the challenge is as tra as as humans, we are stimulus response >> um mechanisms. You know, if somebody if you see a friend across the street and you go to shake their hand and they ignore you, that's going to generate an emotion in you. Well, the only emotion you generate when you're looking at the screen is through your own perceptions, shortcomings, beliefs, fears, and those are usually exacerbated. It's a bit like saying if there's a if there's a cut slight wound on your hand, the extreme in the market is just going to open that wound. And it's and it's I think it's all about acceptance. >> For the last two years, a proud sponsor of the show is a topranked leading prop firm, Alpha Capital. And for the years that I've been working with them and the thousands and thousands of viewers, you guys that have been working with them through the discount codes of Titans of Tomorrow, it's clear for me to see why they are top ranked prop firm in the industry. They have also reached a monumental milestone of $100 million in payouts. And with the multiplestep plans and the multiple package types they have, there's going to be an option catered specifically for what you're looking for. So you can buy an evaluation account catered to your needs at the most competitive prices and with our discount code toot for Titans of Tomorrow. You are able to get the most unbeatable, unmatched prices in the industry with a leading trusted prop firm. And with that being said, let's get back to the episode. >> It's actually nice cuz when people say, "Oh, is volatility good or bad?" worse if it's in my direction or not in my direction. So it's it's perception of of what you see. Um I want to discuss psychology as a a little bit more actionable in the sense of people talk about psychology as like I need to add these things adding a morning routine adding journaling meditating and whatnot that whole mix and other people will be in the basket of uh I don't need all of these things is just time in the game confidence reps uh um reference points and all of these things and usually you you build the tolerance and you you gain the traits of psychology through exposure. Which category would you say is more important? Great question. I would it's very difficult to say it's more important. I would say the category that's most important is relevant to that trader. So the first thing I would say is know thyself. >> So I'm I've worked recently with a guy who has got his morning routine down down to a tea. Everything that he does is literally to the minute meditate, journal, visualize, does everything. sits in front of his screen and has one losing trade and then it all goes to it all goes to it goes to [ __ ] for one of a better expression and the challenge is he's putting reliance on that. He's like but I'm doing everything right and I'm I was like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. The analogy I use is you can buy your partner flowers and you could be buying your partner flowers because you feel guilty because you're having an affair. You could be buying your partner flowers because you know she likes flowers or he likes flowers. You can buy your partner flowers because you like flowers regardless of what they think. So the thing that gets done is the same thing, the process of buying flowers. The feeling and the emotion behind it can be completely different. >> So one of the things I said to him is that, you know, I could tell you stories of city traders in London who go out till 4:00 in the morning, do everything that they shouldn't be doing, have had one hour of sleep, and as soon as they're in front of their screens, they are the most disciplined, focused humans you'll ever meet. So there's evidence that you don't actually there are people that don't need to have a plethora of a morning routine to be able to deliver. But there are also other traders that I know that would be that benefit from a morning routine. Um so it for him it was more a case of saying well how do we actually how do we actually create it and what we examined was that he was doing all that because he felt he should do it. >> Exactly. There you go. Because that's what everybody else should be doing. And I said what do you want to do in the morning? He said well I live in Utah. It's gorgeous. I just want to go and, you know, just take a walk and take the fresh air. I said, "Try that then. Let's experiment." >> And it helped because what he wasn't doing and he said, "Well, I didn't realize." He said, "I was I was almost exhausted before I even got in front of my screens." But for somebody else, doing all of those things is actually the right process. So, I think in that sense, it's it's an experimenting process to find out what what is right. And I'm not trying to dodge the question, but I think for most traders, it's a bit of both. So, some traders journaling is really important. Some traders it it isn't because they've already got a handle on on their emotions. So for some traders they can they can stay discipline, but they're doing it through gritted teeth. So they're they're sticking to the rules. They're sticking to the rules, but their emotions are all over the place. >> So spending a bit of time journaling to find out why will mean that if they can get the emotional volume down, that's just going to make the journey a lot easier. Um also it's where you are in the journey. Sometimes it might be that the external the the the the the morning routine the the meditation is what you need right now because you're you're you're just that's the thing that's going to benefit you. But for somebody else it's more the data side. So it can also be not just which one but where you are in the journey. I've worked with somebody I just I just got them to cut caffeine out >> that as a take away >> take away. So sometimes it's sometimes to to add to that it's taking away. It's not always I think we have this as humans if I if I add in and do this and do this sometimes it's taken away and for the guy in the states Dan it was all about taking away on his ming routine so he was actually in a much better state because he did what he wanted to do >> and I said why do how does that make you feel? He says well I feel I'm almost getting rewarded because I'm in this great position that I'm in a financial position that I can learn to trade. I'm at home all day. Yeah. and what you were doing was almost acting like you were still in your job and felt you had to do all these things before you started trading. Well, why not honor the fact that you get to trade and you're in this great position by doing the thing you want to do in the morning. M so it's yeah it's it's difficult to go it's difficult to say one or the other but I think a combination of two is usually >> I had a I had a guy on earlier and he um basically he he just had an addictive personality and it went down into initially food and then he got really overweight and then uh recovered from that and then he got into alcohol and substances and then had to go through a whole rehab process and then ended up being a trading/gambling addiction and uh he was talking about substraction in the idea that if you got a chaotic IC life and and your dopamine is all over the place and and you're hyper stimulated through whether it's social media or food or whatever it may be. How do you expect to have calm and and level-headed reactions to the market which is an amplifier of all kinds of emotions? So, I'm actually in the category of subtract before ad. Um and then I had another guy just uh two days ago and we were talking about okay the morning routine. What is the objective? because either we do it because we're supposed to or we do it because oh it's it's a nice way to start. It's symbolic. So I asked him what is his? And he said I don't do any of that stuff. What I tend to do is I have a coffee. I listen to the same song every day. And I was like oh interesting why like why the same song? What? And he was like it just helps me leave everything at the door. And when I thought about it after overnight I realized like when you see Ronaldo take a penalty. Now a penalty is it can be on in a Sunday in a training ground and that's the easiest thing in the world or a work cup final. Yeah. But notice how he'll always do the I don't know three steps back, one to the left, he'll do the whole he has a routine and then you see like Jovovic before he serves, he bounces the ball and uh I saw a clip of it the other day. He kept bouncing it and they counted. He did 59 bounces and um people getting annoyed, the opponent was getting annoyed. It's like if he's not got that feeling of likeve I've locked in >> um I'm not going to serve. And then Nadal, you see he does his little wipe and and picks his wedgie or whatever. and they're all doing these uh triggers and I think it's just to lock in. And then what I thought about is oh they're doing things to get into flow state. Yes. >> Um so I don't know if you're familiar with it or if you can expand on what is flow state for a trader and how can we better get into that flow state when we need to. >> That's a that's a great question. Uh for me there's three there's three fundamental things to it. It's breathing. Um it's it's especially for day traders is positioning. And what I mean by positioning is literally the environment that you are in. I remember once when I was coaching they there were three three brothers. Two of them two of them were twins. And I was coaching these guys and I they had set themselves up. They had they owned a factory in South End and they were set up with their screens in the fac in the factory office. Okay. And I remember sitting there and I and one of the brothers was struggled with discipline. And I looked at them because they were basically trading us pretty much the similar way because they'd learned and they they they'd learned the same strategy and system. And what I noticed about the brother that was that was trigger happy is he sat closer to the screen. And what would happen is as it got closer to potentially the trade setting up, he got closer and closer and it was I'm exaggerating slightly, but it was almost as if his face was up against the screen because they had their desks next to each other and I was like whereas the other brother David would sit back. The other brother had his hand on the mouse. David had his hand away from the mouse. So he was he was in a more observing state. He was still paying attention, but Mike was literally in it and with it. And I think it's little things like that. So breathing is the obvious one because most people are are breathing, you know, breathing breathing shallow. So just consciously remembering to do that. Uh second is environment and that can be how you're sat, what's your environment. you're not going to get in a flow state if you're trying to trade and the kids and the dogs and everything is, you know, going on around you. So, creating an environment, again, that's external. It's not guaranteed to get you in a flow state, but there's no chance of getting in a flow state if there's too much going on around you. Um, and that I'd include in that notifications, stuff off your phone. So, I remember working with another guy and he came to he came for a mentoring session at my house and he's showing me his results and I've never seen so many I mean, it's literally ding ding ding ding. I was like, "Is that what it's like all day for you?" And I'm like, "How are you how are you able to in focus?" So, >> environment, whether it's noise, stimulation on your laptop, that's it. Um, third one I think is all about it's all about embracing what is in front of you. And how can I put it? When I trade, I can certainly within the the business side of what I do, I can I can be impatient. And if you ask any of my friends or my wife, she said, "Yeah, Ali, Alli's impatient." it's, you know, I don't like queuing. I can get a bit um if but what I've realized is my impatience comes if I perceive that I'm out of control. >> Whereas I'll quite happily sit for half an hour waiting if I've made the decision to be there ahead of time. Um if I'm if I'm late, I get very anxious. Why? Because I'm out of control. >> So for me in that scenario, I look at that. But with trading, I've never felt that. Um I used to overtrade. I was more of an overt trader when I started out. But what I find with trading is isn't I it's the frame. Isn't it lovely that I get this time? So for me as a swing trader now because I don't day trade, I get this half an hour in the morning where I can scan my markets and it's something pure about the fact that I'm not having to answer an email, respond to something, let the dog out because it needs a Wii, whatever it is, it's just me in the screens. And I think that helps me get in a flow state that I see it as a form. I see as how how lucky am I to get to do this and I might make money at the end of it. So that helps me just enjoy it because if you enjoy something you're far more likely to get into a flow state. Obviously I've got my routines in terms of what markets I check and and I think all of that is a given. You should have a a system. You know if you're just randomly checking markets or you know one morning you're getting up and looking at the news you know and then and then checking the markets or whatever it is. If you haven't got a system it's going to make it harder. So that's a given. But if from a perception point of view, you can get into a state where you see what you're doing as a privilege, you enjoy it. And again, I know it sounds a bit trick every day, but I don't think a week goes past I'm like, this is this is amazing. This I get to I get to participate in this this crazy thing. And I think back to if somebody said, "This is how you're going to make a living." When I was at school, I'd have just I would have laughed. I would have just what? I wouldn't have understood it. Do it. >> How did you arrive to this? Because if you're referring to the guy in the factory who's locked in, he is clearly just in a fight orflight state. And in a fight orflight state, the logical brain goes out the window and it's just reactionary. Um whereas the state you're in, if you're calm and your presence and you're appreciative and this is actually your calm portion of the day, then obviously I mean it's it's from the book um the Zen Trader maybe. He talks about how a um in the wild when you see a gazelle, you know, grazing in the savannah, he he will react in an instant if he hears a noise because it could be a lion and he'll he'll go, but he's not in the fight orflight state at any given moment. He's just calm but alert is the frame he used and he said the trader should be calm but alert. So when you have arrived to this state, how did you even get here in the first place? Is it just years of doing or >> I think it's years of doing. I look back to um the the I don't think there was one moment. A lot of a lot of times I get asked what was the what was the moment where it all changed but there was one big moment and it was when um when because I again the blind spot for me was logging data tracking my trades. I was always you got to be in it to win it. You got to be you're not you can't you can't make money sitting on the sidelines and whilst that's all true >> my pendulum was swung too far to the actionorientated side of things rather than being able to review it. It's a bit like sympathetic parasympathetic. I always sort of think your time at a weekend reviewing your trades and your data. That's the that's the parasymp that's the time where you re you review and you rest and you reflect. So I was always the trader that didn't have time to get his data sorted out. And when the coach that I had at the time was like Ali I haven't seen a tra I haven't seen a trade. You're at every you're at every session you're you're always here to trade but I haven't actually seen any results. And that was because again I never just got round to it because I felt that wasn't where my focus should be. But what was interesting was once I started looking and recording my data, we noticed something really key which was on average if I had so I would back then I was I was working a job coming home in the afternoon and essentially trading the US morning and the US afternoon. So I trading the US session. So the US morning session would be obviously UK afternoon. So I'm sat there and if I'd had two losing trades in the afternoon, so two losing trades in the US morning session, my average trade count for that day was about 4.8. 8. So what it was saying is now some days that was valid because there were just more trades on those days, but it was too much of a statistical anomaly to go, I'm obviously doing something here. And what we what we realized was that I was I wasn't out and out revenge trading where I was just chucking money at the market to try to win that day, but I was just letting little subtle things go of the strategy because I was in a fight orflight state. I was just on that edge. And and the the story I told myself was not I want to make money today. It was I just want to get back to break even. So I envisaged the end of the day with a beer. H and then if at least it was break even I can go into the next day to make money. So what we realized was that I was getting into this flow of frost state. So for me it was the realization that I this is what I was doing and it was the hard numbers in black and white going >> when you when you have too many you have two losers in a short period of time you tend to overtrade and it wasn't this miraculous thing of now I know this it just stopped but it was an awareness and it was an acceptance that this is what I was doing. So that again it was rewiring. It's this that neural re rewiring of I now know what I'm doing. It's there in black and white. I've got to accept that that's where I'm at and and shift it. And once I started to see the evidence, which again, the problem with trading is the results the results of good behavior, there's a lag time. It doesn't it doesn't happen straight away. And that's why for me, having other traders around me at the time was really useful. But in that moment, it was it was just it was just an an acceptance that if I don't do this, I'm going to go around in this. I'm gonna I'm just going to flip-flop and then and then I'll probably if I if I go to that extreme, I'll probably rinse my account or or or or lose so much money that I'll then flip to fear >> because the thing I hear is are you a greed-based trader or a fear-based trader? Well, I've seen greed based traders that have overcooked it and then they display all the traits of a fear-based trader because of how much money they've lost or the position they're in. So, so I don't look at it that people tend to have fear or greed-based tendencies. I was more greed-based, but yeah, for me it was an acceptance. It was just I I'm if I don't change, I've got enough evidence now to say that if I don't change, this isn't going to work. >> Hey Titans, let's take a quick break to talk about a sponsor of the show. In fact, many people have been talking about it. A lot of noise in the industry about this firm. It is Ola Prime. And before I even consider who to partner up with as a sponsor of the show, I go through a massive due diligence process because I hugely value the platform that we've built and the direction that we're going. Therefore, the most important thing for me is trust and transparency. And a few things that are unique and that I love about Ola Prime is first of all they do a 95% profit split basically unheard of. So whatever profit you make you keep 95% of it and most importantly 1hour payouts. Your payouts are practically instantly practically on demand so that you can really trade make profit withdraw it and continue to trade. And the best thing that I love is that they've given me a exclusive massive discount to make them one of the cheapest pro firms to work with on the market. So, with prices starting as little as $38, I encourage you to check out everything all our Prime has to offer. And if you use the link in the description or the code toot, that'll get you the best prices available with a massive discount. And with that being said, let's get right back into the episode. We're talking about um the transition from going a non-trader to a trader and how the market can amplify emotions. And then the next step that you have taken that many don't is other people's money and the responsibility of and whether it's fiduciary responsibility or just the phone call you may get if it's if it's someone you have a relationship with. Um but that added layer of accountability or responsibility will amplify further all the psychology problems that you maybe overcame on a personal level uh for personal capital. Talk me through that journey the next hurdle. >> Uh the the journey was presented to me back in I think 2016. So, I' I'd had enough of a track record and the the asset management company in London contacted me and said, "Look, would you do you want to do this?" And I flat out said, "No." Um, because I honestly I just wasn't the confidence in me wasn't there. I thought it's not what I want to do. Um, but it niggled away at me. And I think for me, if I look back at my life, it's not something always I always consciously think, but I I like a challenge. And I think it's important that you you stretch yourself. And I think sometimes the the niggle keeps it's like it keeps knocking at the door. You need to examine it. And it wasn't it wasn't out of pressure. It was just no this I I want I want to test myself in the in this arena because it's something that a lot of traders either don't get the opportunity to do. And the opportunity came to me and at the time the way I convinced myself was I don't have to continue to do it. I can try it and if I don't like it true I'll see. So >> I went for it. Uh initially for me the the the the thing that I said earlier that really hit me was that in the first two or three months just having to report the result on a monthly basis just meant it was it's it became each trade just just amplified. >> So if I go back to what I was saying about the the emotional up and down and most traders are on on a on some sort of spectrum. Their emotions fluctuate to some degree. I think there's this misconception out there that successful traders they they're like they've got an emotional flatline. It's just it moves like this. Well, what happened was that just exaggerated. So, suddenly I'm like, right, okay, I know logically that it doesn't matter. And the investors at the time aren't looking for a profitable return every single month. But the mere fact that I had to send the send the figures in, send the statements in. And seeing it in black and white on the PDF, this is this is the result for this month just created an awareness that I hadn't experienced for for years. And actually, it was really good because it gave me it gave me that little bit of an insight again because you can get far removed from guys who are only in the game six months. It made me have a a new appreciation for the traders I work with that it's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm just feeling I'm just feeling it a little bit more." uh there was no issue in terms of uh execution. I wasn't doing anything that I shouldn't. So really that that was the only that was the only issue for me. Uh that's the only thing I can consciously remember. Now I'm just like it's just it's just part of the process. >> Um I I I do minimize risk that I wouldn't do on my own account. So for sake of argument, I'm trading pretty much the same system and strategies, but I'm just trading them in the fund at a slightly lower risk, >> which risk. >> Yeah. But it's not it's not it's not it's not a major differential in terms of in terms of how I how I trade. But yeah, it was just that first six months I was like oh that but the way I framed it in my mind is oh this is interesting that I feel this way rather than something's wrong there's something I I was like okay this is a new venture so I've you know if I've gone from I've gone to black belt I've dropped down a couple of belts. So this is just, you know, or I'm I'm in a I'm in an environment where the intensity is higher. So every little move is is going to be amplified slightly. But the frame I like to have in my mind is I try and keep things from a curiosity point of view. So I say to myself, isn't it interesting that I feel that way? Yeah. And again, taking yourself out and not almost talking about yourself in the third person. So you're observing. Isn't it interesting that I I'm I'm acting this way. Wonder what that is. and trying to be curious about it rather than thinking, "Oh, something's wrong." You know, I've I've lost and and again, what happened within the first few months, I hit a losing run and I just went, >> "Market's just the market's just laughing at me. All I can do is laugh back. >> I'm I'm doing everything right. It's just it's just how it is." >> What about that extra layer of accountability that you would >> maybe think twice before getting into a trade because, you know, okay, it's not my money anymore. Did that help or turn you into a bit of analysis paralysis? it I didn't I didn't for in terms of execution I I I was okay. Um yes we were you know we hit the sort of three four month mark and I'm like oh yeah I was there was a there was a few there was a few slightly heightened emotions but I was trading a system that I'm so familiar with that I knew it would come good and it did. So um yeah it doesn't it doesn't really affect me. Now the the challenge might be is in the next few years where I expand and push that harder and the sums of money under management go up. I might find that the intensity is is higher, but I'll only know that once I get there. I can't I I I can't really prepare for that and do anything now. I can continue doing what I'm doing and if and if that if I get there and the intensity goes up, I'll I'll adopt the same approach. Okay. Isn't that interesting? >> Yeah. And I think that's the that's the trying to bring in humility and it's hard if you've for any trader at any level if you start getting some success usually you want to up your account you want to do a second prop firm you want to do your first prop firm you want to borrow money from mom and dad so that you can trade that most most traders when they see some success want to want to amplify or you know elevate where they are but it's always understanding that whenever you whenever you take a step up you create and a higher level of exposure, the potential is that it could impact you. But for a lot of traders, they act that I've worked with when they when they trade with a little bit more money, and I'm not suggesting any of the listeners add more money to their account and they'll be they'll suddenly do better. But I have worked with some traders who they needed a little bit more skin in the game to actually stick to their rules. I had a guy once who was this was years ago, was earning 8080,000 uh pounds a year as an air conditioning fitter. He had £1,000 in his trading account. So >> he inevitably ended up breaking his rules because he was like, "Well, it's just a whatever." Yeah. So I, you know, and again, I'm not recommending people just automatically put more money in their account, but for him, putting a bit more money in his account, he upped his discipline because suddenly the loss, the loss hurt a little bit. And for some traders, that's >> it's interesting. It goes to show that emotions, our job is not to get rid of the emotions because they serve us. They are there to protect at the same time. And and sometimes it can be too much and they hinder. Um I want to I want to speak upon uh ego >> because ego can be a term that is uh attached to confidence and attached to identity self-confidence self-preservation. Uh and this can be maybe the good side of it but it can also turn you into overconfident, overzealous and arrogant and and ignoring the plan or you know just becoming a bit um a bit of bravado let's say. Where where does ego come into when what's ego's place in trading and and how do you harness it as opposed to let it control you? >> Yeah, great question. For me, ego is about is can you in those moments do you believe in yourself enough to stick to your plan when you're four trades down and the inevitable >> five, six, seven trade winning run that follows that you're you hit it right on the next trade and the next trade and the next trade. So I look at it and go it's is some might say that's confidence that's not ego but I think the two are very close. So there there are moments moments through what is a fluctuating set of results. No trader is linear you know they don't bank money every single month is can you can you in those moments believe in yourself. So, it's the fine line between thinking you're all that and thinking you're amazing and thinking you've mastered the markets to using a similar type of feeling to say right now now when my back's a little bit against the wall. Can I stick to my plan? Can I be disciplined enough to to stick to my risk? Can I can I participate in this game that 99% of humans wouldn't even even want to play in, let alone be successful in it? and and and maybe that's sometimes a good way of framing it in your mind is saying, you know, I I'm here as assuming you're doing everything right, I'm here and most people wouldn't be. So, I think that's where ego can be quite good. Where ego isn't good, and I've experienced this at times, especially early on, is when you project forward, and that's usually when you've had a good run. So, you've you've had a it can be it can be a winning week for some traders if they've never experienced that. And what I think where ego goes out of hand is they either think there's something that they're not, especially if all they've done is just execute a system. That's still that still reserves a pat on the back, but it's you just executed the system. But where ego gets dangerous is when you think, "Ah, I've had a winning week. I've had a winning month. I've had a winning year." And you project forward and you imagine the same result occurring year in year out, month in month out. And it's the as soon as it gets projected and you you kind of you do the you do the boy maths and you go right if I continue to make this much money oh then I can get the Lambo. Yeah. So that's where I think ego can get dangerous. It's not always about it's not always about what you project to other people because in that scenario you might not there might not be the outlet for it. It's when you start thinking that the success you've achieved this month, this week is either going to be like a cash, you know, it's going to be like a paycheck and it's going to be 5% a month every month or 10% a month every month, month in month out forever >> or you think that the run that you've had now is just somehow 100% down to you and it's then just going to keep happening. So that's I think that's that's where I see the two is ego confidence are these two things that are very very close together. I've seen a lot of traders who will be very academic with the markets in the sense of they'll be very disciplined with their journaling weekend reviewing trades and back testing and they'll do a whole you know weekend long marathon back testing session but they'll never place a trade in a prop firm or in the market and they'll do that for months and months and years and years and never take a trade and then you have the other side the other extreme which is it's just every week reload the accounts new prof new prof where where is the arena to really master and learn Is it in a environment of control, back testing and journaling or is it in the environment of performance? >> Great question. Uh the answer is it you got it depends on the trader. I think the trader needs to to look at at where where which is the area they tend most traders will disown one of those areas. So I was disowning the data, the journaling. >> Um so for me that was my blind spot. That's probably where I needed to go and that that links into the 8020 rule. So for me, I was able to get an 80% impact on what I was doing in terms of results. I don't mean 80% return straight away, but 80% impact on my results by doing not a huge amount more. Just logging some trades and checking in with the guy that I was working with at the time. Whereas the trader who's over here who's, like you said, marathon back testing, doing all of this, everything, the spreadsheet's perfect, it's colorcoded, it's all done like that. >> That's that's the blind spot is that they're not they're not doing it. So you tend to use the thing that you hyperfocus on as as a crutch. So you you say, "Right, okay." Yeah. Well, I you your ego comes out. Yeah. Well, I'm here. I'm here every day. I'm in front of my screens. I'm taking the risk. I'm doing that. Yeah. But if you step back for a little bit and just had a look at what you're doing, you might see where you're going wrong. This guy Yeah. But everything Look, I understand the strategy to to a level this guy doesn't. Yeah. Well, you're using that as a crutch because you've got fear of pressing the button. So at some point there you just have to you have to acknowledge that both of these elements are critical and the chances are you are spending too much time on one of them because it feels good. And it's that idea of doing the thing that feels uncomfortable because it feels uncertain. For me filling out the spreadsheet was uncomfortable because it felt uncertain and on some level I think my subconscious knew that it was going to highlight the issue. >> Yes. Whereas the guy over here who's doing all of the spreadsheet and the back testing but not placing the trade going and placing the trade will feel uncomfortable because on some level that's going to highlight all the fears and all the issues they've got with being out of control because once they press the button they already know and I think I'm a big believer that we we we know more than we than we necessarily do in the front of our minds and our subconscious going you're going to have to face all of your demons if you start trading. I had to face all of my demons by filling out the back back testing sheet. And you you're you're the black and white of it is you're either going to realize that you're either going to realize that and do something about it. >> You're going to realize it, not do something about it, which is the worst place to be. >> Yeah. >> Because if you know if I did this statistically, this would change my trading. If I started trading, it's going to be awful and it's going to be painful. I'm going to have to be out of control, but I can't make money on, you know, I can't learn to ride a bike on a blackboard. I've got to I've got to actually be in the market. If knowing that knowing that that's what you need to do and not doing it, I think is the worst >> kind of pain. If I think about any regret I've got in my life, it's that I knew what to do >> and I didn't do it. >> If you if you if you're naive to it, well, you're not going to get the outcome, but you haven't. Yeah. So, I think with all the information that's out there, I think what happens is a lot of traders know there's something that they need to really do that they're not doing, but they they hide under the information. They they go and watch another another training video or they they do something else and actually if they just looked and said, "What is it that I'm avoiding? What is it that I know I need to do that I'm not?" it will be invariably the thing that creates the most pain, anxiousness, uncertainty, and that's probably where they need to go. >> I read this thing that was basically around this of uh if you know you got to do something but you're not doing it. Um when you worry about the future, this is the definition of anxiety. If you feel anxious, it's because you know what you need to do, you're just not doing it. And if you if you're someone that feels sad or depressed, it's because you're ruminating too much on the past which you can't control or change anymore. uh which was an interesting reflection when I read the book u for example mastery and because we touched upon flow state in in other domains mastery and and um you know excellence comes from flow state which is another word for maybe subconscious competence it's just like you're doing you've done something so many times that you just perform without realizing u to connect that in the markets you could say that's intuition you could say I've got a sixth sense I know I know what's going to happen and you just get a feeling for what could happen next despite what your plan may say, "Does intuition have a place in the markets or should we be as mechanical as possible?" >> Great question. Um, for me, it depends on where you are on your journey. If you're if you're a couple of years in, intuition isn't intuition, it's fear. You haven't you haven't done enough reps to know that's just that's just fear and greed. Um, for me, there have been trades I can go back even probably a year and my intuition is saying no. and the setup is there. >> Now for me personally in that situation I take the trade I journal the intuition. It's very rare that it's very rare. I can't really think of any time where I've gone with, "Oh, I don't think I should be in this or I've I I may have read something earlier that week and it's niggling on my mind." And I'm I always go back to the coin flip idea that the outcome in that moment could have been the complete opposite and then I my my intuition would have been wrong. So that I think is where most traders should be rather than this area of the I I I' I've got this feeling about this because they could be right, they could be wrong, but ultimately whether they're right or wrong is basically down to a coin flip on that one trade. And the problem is if they're right, if they have an intuition that they should be should be long euro even though there's a setup not it's not there and they take it and then they're right, they will they will magnify the result of that trade because it gave them the result they wanted and they potentially are then falsely amplifying their intuition. Whereas, >> yes, >> if they if they didn't take the if they if they took the trade and the trade lost, that would probably actually be for most traders the best thing because it would then say, well, you're reality. Yeah. Now, >> if you get to a stage, you're 20 20, not not even 20, you could be five or 10 depending on your your skill level. And you can start to bring in an element of intuition because you've done enough reps. Who am I to sit here and say no? The challenge with that is what happens when things don't work out? Because you have, unless you've been amazing in your level of journaling to be able to distinguish when that trade was more of an intuition trade, the risk is how do you quantify that? >> How do you do that? Now, I'm sure there's traders out there that have operated that way and have been successful doing that. I'm not that guy. I'm not that guy. Um for me I need I need um yes there's there's there's discretion in my analysis but in terms of the setups I take they have to they have to tick a set of boxes because that's what I think helps me sleep at night especially when things when I'm going through a draw down or things aren't working because I can go to sleep going I know I did everything right. I'm not wondering going oh did I should I shouldn't I should I trust this? Um I don't maybe I'm just not that smart. there there are smarter people with better intuition out there. But that's that's worked for me. And one of the things that I'm seeing a lot of in at the moment is traders who are that they've got a high level of technical skill. They, you know, I'm like, "Wow, you've only been doing this six months, but you've learned a huge amount about the technicals." But again, it goes back to my flower analogy. The challenge for a lot of them is that as a result of that, they think they know what's going to happen. And then when that doesn't happen, it's like they're crushed because they go, "Yeah, but I saw a value gap, whatever it is, with this happening and this happening." And there's nothing against that analysis, but you've put you've put so much weight on it and the market's just laughed at you. And that's that old saying, I come back to it. The market, some days the market will smile at you, some days the market will laugh at you. All you can do is smile and laugh back. And it always that is the reminder that no matter how good you are, no how ma good your system is in those day-to-day scenarios, trade by trade scenarios, the market's going to do whatever it wants. And you have to be able to accept that that sometimes whatever it is you've done. And it goes back to the scenario. I look back some of the trades that I've I've taken that are maybe a a four out of five and I I've got a a worry about, they've ended up being the better trades. And I see it with traders. they get a fabulous clean setup and they love the pattern and they take it and they've already they've already think that trade's going to win. So they falsely correlate cleanness and clarity of the setup to a higher percentage of >> a win. Might win might not but invariably when that trade loses if you if you've created a false expectation then the weight of that loss can potentially be be greater. I think in the in the prop firm era uh an unprofitable trader is able to make a payout because if you just time the equity curve bullish portion with the right account at the right time you can actually secure a payout and it's more than your buy in. So you look like you're profitable even though at the end of the month at the end of the year you might be a break even trader and therefore they have no longevity. Whereas someone like yourself two decades in longevity is the key word here. What what would you attribute to longevity in the markets? Um, an enjoyment number one, an enjoyment of it. Uh, I I I said to you, I get up most, not every day, but you know, pretty much two or three times a week. I'm like, God, this is just this it still blows my mind. Maybe it's just because I'm old. It still blows my mind that I sit there and I do this, this, and this. So, I think an element of gratitude towards it. Um, for me it's being for me personally and I know traders that will invest more time in the news than the fundamental side. I don't ignore it. I have a system that I I use for seeing and interpretating news and for some trades I will I will le into a position and hold a percentage of that based on what I think the fundamentals and sentiment are going to do. But I've locked in the original I've locked in the original trade and that's just to see if that trade could run on. I think a lot of the issue is the amount of information, the amount of the amount that a trader is trying to cobble together to create a system. Um, a bit of holy grail. I still see holy grail mentality that's been around since I started out where people looking for the perfect system, the perfect perfect setup. U the other thing is um understanding and again it's having a balanced view about what's going on. So, a lot of traders will say prop firms are, you know, the enemy. And then the other side, they'll say they're the best thing ever. They're probably somewhere in the middle. >> You know, I look at them and go, they're just another casino. They're just a casino and you got to be able to play them them right. And I get all my guys that come to me with goals to be successful in prop. I said, even if it's $500, put $500 in your own account and trade alongside. take the same setups, but trade them with your own money and also trade them in the prop firm because I want you to notice the difference in your emotion between the two. >> And invariably, the traders that do the best that I've worked with when it comes to prop firms are the ones that have traded their own money. The ones that struggle are the ones that have come in from the word go and have started trading with prop straight away because >> I think I think it's that cut off point and some people will just go cut off point, game over, go again. >> Yeah. It's the reset. Yeah, >> the reset button. But what I've also seen is people people highly technical, they go 3% down and they literally freeze up because they've got because of the cut off point. So what have we got? We've got our two traders at the end of the spectrum. We've got the trader that's overtrading wants to be in the market. We've got the more fear-based trader. The prop firm is amplifying that. So it's the guy just goes game over. Go again, go again. And again, I'm not here to judge or say that's wrong or right. But the risk the risk you've always got there is that it's the money is coming externally. Now yes, a lot of traders I speak to say, "Well, I'm going to pass this challenge and do this and do this and sweep the money across and trade with it myself." Great. But you're it's a it is a different discipline and I think if trade but but you can also benefit hugely from trading your own money even if your primary goal is profit because you will see how your emotions are different. You know, three losing trades on a prop firm is close to game over. Three losing trades on your own money, if you're managing your risk correctly, is nothing. And that contrast can help you deal with what's going on on the prop firm side more effectively. I >> I think it's ling back to what you said earlier of trailers are made in the extremes. So, if you're if you're going to be made in these draw down periods, in a prop firm, you just delete that account, start a new one. Whereas in real life, in your own account, you got to earn your way back up. You got to climb your way out. And you will learn a lot of lessons. Having said that, um you also mentioned about reducing risk along a losing period and obviously the flip side of that becomes well you've amplified your time in or duration in that draw down and what could have been a twoe losing period now becomes a one-mon losing period and amplifies the situation even further. What is the correct way to navigate risk as a whole in terms of high conviction plays or winning periods, losing periods? How do you navigate that? >> Yeah, different traders have different approaches. Um, some traders will, you know, will will leverage up on their risk. So, if they're on a winning run, they've got they they see it they've got a bit more room, you know, a bit more a bit more profit. So, they will risk a bit more. My view is if it's systematized that and you can you could you can look and and look back at your data and say this works then that's fine and you can work it. So level one for a trader would be can I stick to my rules and if I'm struggling to stick to my rules during a draw down period and usually the draw down period is more fear. So traders had two or three losses they're struggling to take the the next trade. If reducing your risk in that scenario so you go from 1% to half a percent. If you do that and it means you can execute the consequence of that is when you come out of that draw down you or you start having a not come out the draw down have a winning run you're not going to be getting the money back as quick >> but at that level so a level one trader that's the best thing to do because even though you are going to take longer to get out of the draw down what you've done is conditioned yourself that the most important thing is sticking to your plan and the trade that is not everything is everything is downstream from that. So if you can't do that by staying at 1% you need to reduce your risk. But the next time you go through that scenario the goal is to not reduce your risk and stay at the 1%. And then once you've done that level three level four is to say right can I can I during can I during a winning run increase and le leverage up but within a system not you know not doubling up because you've had a you know a couple of winning trades. It has to be within a system. I had a guy years ago that I worked with that did the opposite. So it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't Martin. He wasn't doubling up on each trade. It wasn't something stupid like that. But what he was doing is saying based on my data I'm never going to have more I very rarely have more than seven losing trades. So what I would do is when I hit seven I would actually increase my risk a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Um but it was all tested through data and he was able to execute. So what it meant is he came out the draw down faster. if he got to a certain period of winning trades, he would do he would reduce his risk if he'd had a certain number of winners in a row. Now, he was highly mechanical. He had fixed fixed targets, fixed tops stops. He wasn't, you know, he wasn't running trades and trailing stops or anything like that. It was a very very fixed mechanical system, but that worked for him because he he was using it he was using it the the inverse way. So, there isn't really one way one way to do it, but everything is downstream of being able to execute the setup when it's there. If you are overleveraging to try and get out your draw down or you're reduc you're reducing your risk or you're doing anything that isn't planned. That's the other side. A lot of traders will make the decision to reduce their risk. But it's it's not a conscious decision. It's a reactionary based decision. You know, there'll be people listening to this who probably say, well, no, I'm not going to, you know, if I do that, I'm going to I'm going to lose out on profit when it when the winners do come. But if you're not able to execute on your trade, you have to do something because that's the fundamental that's the fundamental baseline for all traders. And again, this is one iteration. I'm not suggesting that's what you do going forward. The next time, manage your risk and keep the risk the same. And then once you've able to do that, so it's trading your trading career is a series of tick boxes >> which builds the confidence. Can I can I can I do this in this situation? No. Okay. The next time that situation comes around, I need to be able to Okay, I can. So first first losing run I'm I'm struggling to take the trade. So I'm going to desensitize and reduce the risk to half a percent. Consequence of that I realize is that I'm not going to be able to get out of the draw down as quick. Okay. But it meant I could execute. Next iteration keep the percentage at the same risk. Now I can now I've got enough data that says no matter what goes on winning run losing run quiet period I'm able to maintain my system my strategy and my my risk. Now I can look at legging into trades, holding trades for longer, taking half profits at certain levels, move all of those things. But I think I I see too many traders trying to jump to that before they've they've given them their their themselves enough proof to be able to say I can I can operate in a dis I can operate in an uncertain environment in a disciplined way. >> Mhm. when when people say that the market is random uh whereas each unique moment there's different people involved and some people are buying for a scalp some people are buying for investment so when each market moment is unique and the market can be called random this idea of predictable repeatable outcomes from randomness seems like a bit of a disconnect how would you help someone find clarity in random outcomes leading to predictable results >> love that I think for me it's it's all about time and the amount of data that you have. So if we go back to our example of the the trader that's back testing and and and over and and all this data and is able to have an element of predictability, the average number of winners in a year, the the average profit over a 5year period and all of these stats and numbers, but can't place the trade, that's because they haven't accepted the randomness of the individual trade. So I always say to traders is that if you can go into each trade knowing the only thing you've got is your system or your process because the market is random in that moment and the the phrase or the the saying that that that sticks with me. I can't remember who told me is the markets are the same and always different and the markets are different and always the same. And it's that idea that there is a pattern and predictability to it but trade by trade it's never it's never going to look the same. I mean, I can look back at my results and as a swing trader, there's probably three, four months where I make a decent chunk of my money every year, but it's not the same four months every year. So, there's there's a pattern there. So, I'll probably scratch around for two or three months of the year and make and make nothing. But, I can't say, well, it's definitely between May and March. So there's an element of pattern and predictability to my results, but it's not enough to be able to say, right, I can take I can take these months off of the year because the chances are the next year that element of predictability will change. It still might be three or four months where I make a big chunk of my money, but it's not the same three or four months. So it's that balance between understanding that in the short term, you've got to be willing to to to to navigate the ship. It's like the Gulf Stream follows a similar pattern year in year out. If you follow it across the Atlantic Ocean, it sweeps up to the UK. But if you were in your ship, you're not going to be navigating your ship exactly the same. If you were to follow that year in year out, you're going to have to adjust accordingly. So, and that's again that's the that's the back testing fallacy. I'm all about data and back testing, but not to the point where you you you become so rigid that you think the result is going to be the same. And it's and it's the remembering that you've got a strategy that's winning 60% of the time. You've got a good system. Over 100 trades, you're still losing 40 on 40 of those. It's a lot. >> But how those 40 are distributed is not it's not winner winner loser, winner, winner, loser. And everybody knows that they I explain that people go, "Yeah, well that's obvious." But when you So, okay, so why are you then reacting when seven of those 40 losers happen to come in one go? Then you think there's something wrong. So it's again that's again widening your space and time horizon. And a really good trick I say trick or tip people can have is when you find yourself like I did with when I first started the fund or when you've had your first month or first quarter whatever time frame you are fixating on in terms of result. So I've had a good month go well automatically take it out to the next time frame. So if you find yourself going I've had a really good month and you're feeling great about it. Yeah good. But let's see where you are 3 months in. If you're thinking about the quarter and going, "God, it's been really quiet these last three months. It's been an awful summer, well, go out to six months." If you're thinking six months, go out to a year. If you're thinking about your year's results, go out to three. It doesn't mean those results during the time you're thinking about aren't significant. But expand your time horizon because assuming you're doing everything right then you being fixated on a certain point in time by expanding it helps you desensitize to whatever that is be it positive or negative. >> Everything we've spoken about so far is is kind of leading up to the trade where it's the routines, it's the psychology, it's the behavior to get the data, the journaling to then place trades. But then a big portion of a trader's career or job is after the execution when it comes to break even when it comes to profit taking systems and scaling out and so forth. What is your philosophy on trade management? Um, two things. Trade man, whatever trade management system you have will feel like at some point will feel like the worst trade management system in the world because if you decide you're going to run trades for longer, then at some point that is pro I can't I can't speak in exact terms, but that's probably going to impact your win loss ratio. So, if you say, right, I'm going to start running, you know, I want five R trades instead of two R trades, it's probably going to impact your win loss at some point, and then that's probably going to feel like the wrong decision over the short term. So come in with the premise that your risk management system, you're only really adopting a new type of process, running trades, you know, uh legging in, legging out of trades, whatever it is, you're only doing that for two reasons. One, you want to increase your overall profitability. Or second, you you're a bit bored and you you you want to change you. Most people don't optimize for less. They optimize for more. But where most people miss out is the consequence of that optimization. So if you there will be a price to pay somewhere. Have you worked out what that price is? So for instance I we have a strategy on oil within my community and there's a trailing stop option. There's a 2:1 option and inevitably at some point the trailing stop option feels like the worst option because people have had two they've had three months of 2 to1 winners that have only ended up being break evens because they trail their stop up at a certain point and over those three months they're like wait why why didn't I go for this flat 2:1 you made that decision based on what the results are over a 5year 10ear period so the price you pay is over the the short term you've got to sit through you know three months of no winning trades where the trader next to you is is is is six, you know, they're six R down on a simple setup. So, I think that's the that's the is work out what the consequence is because it trade management can get very some traders have got a hugely technical system. Some are straight in, straight out. Neither's wrong or right. Um, but work out what the consequence is and are you happy to have that consequence. So, I've worked with traders who've gone, yeah, like I'm I feel like I want to do all of the, you know, I want to run trades for longer. I want trail stops. I want to use higher time frame higher time frame levels as my targets. But once I've done it, I've gone, "Oh, I don't know if I like the fact that I'm in trades for longer. My win loss ratio has gone down." And I always say, you don't have to do it. There's nothing there's nothing there's nothing bad or wrong with being what we would call a vanilla trader that, you know, goes in and clips two clips on every single trade. There's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is trying to do something that you can't adhere to. So I think yeah it's very difficult to say what the best risk-to-reward system is because it is quite individual but certainly the best thing you can do as a trader is work out what the consequence will be because there will be I've got friends who have been sat in trades for six months and they roll back over. That's not me. I'm yeah you know and but but then you hear about the trade that they got 30 R on but you don't hear about the 10 trades that got to 20 R that rolled all the way back down to wherever their stock was. I've spoken to a variety of guests on the show and a unanimous common denominator between all of them is the emphasis they put on data and actually knowing the inner workings and the insight of your edge and your performance. That's why I'm proud to bring a partner of the show, Tradzella, the number one journaling, back testing, and all-in-one insight experience created by traders for traders. What Tradesella really gives you is deep insights about your trading that would ordinarily not be visible. Whether it's through understanding your trade types and playbooks or even insights powered by artificial intelligence through Zella AI. Whether you trade forex, futures, cryptos, the stock market, it all seamlessly connects to Tradzella. So there is no additional work. You've seen me reference it dozens of times and all of the benefits I've had in my trading from the insights I found from my Tradzilla. So join myself and thousands of other viewers of the show. You'll get the best discount using the link in the description or code toot for Titans of Tomorrow. Yeah, I think in in a lot of people's systems, you can you can very easily see the black white end result, but you cannot see the blind source, as you say, of opportunity cost of okay, I got all of these great trades, but what if I had held longer or what if I had taken trades soon or closed out sooner? Um, in fact, in my own uh career, I I I tend to break even fast and and the reason for that is because I I like it as an insurance or a safety net where it enables me to take uh a little bit more riskier setups or not just A+ setups, but I can take a B+ setup, let's say. Uh because I know worst case scenario, I break even quick and it is what it is if I cover my spread and commission. Um but then what I started to realize was depending on uh how far it went into profits, let's say my partial low is at 1 to three. Yeah. >> How many times did it go one to 2.5 and then break even and then break even? And if you tally that up, that might be 10 20% of trades that went into profit that that went to break even. So then I had to go to a whole 10,00 trade data analysis of like where are the optimal places to take partials not on a trade by trade but over over a large sample size to say okay and then by the way what I stumbled upon was um my first partial just happens to be where the average session volatility is. So I could have saved myself a lot of effort. If if a London session doesn't move more than 30 pips on EU, >> then no point putting a TP at 40 pips because it doesn't tend to move that far. Yeah. >> Um how do you believe in partials? Are you uh fixed fixed TP? >> No. No. Partials is good. Again, again, I'm I'm not I'm not in one camp, but what I love what I love hearing is the fact that you you went and looked at you went and looked at the data and the data gauge you made gave you the decision. So yeah, I'm I I have one one specific strategy within within my sort of suite of strategies that is I'm using partials, but with the other setups, I haven't as yet been able to work out a system where it's it's it's better just to be straight in, straight out. And then I've got one other one that I will if a certain thing happens, I'll build, but I will build in. So I'll leg in, but I won't I won't partial out on that one. I'm building in. If certain things happen, there's a higher probability of getting up to sort of eight nR and then I'll I'm full out at eight or nineR. >> Fair enough. >> So that's just but again that's just how I'm doing it. But again the the similar thing that's that's that's going on here is the decisions are data orientated. >> Yeah. And the difference was even though my behavior didn't drastically change after that data collection. It was just a tweak. But the confidence was completely different because I uh even if I felt like I should hold it longer or or sometimes I feel like should I just cut it early cuz it's stalling now. In the back of my head I'm like no it's okay this is factored in even even if I miss this trade this is factored in and it's still going to be better even if I miss this one trade or the ability to as you were saying zoom out zoom out to not be trade by trade but you know week to week and so forth. Um are you a trend trader or because you mentioned swing uh and therefore and you were saying technicals so is a a predominant foundation of direction and and the way you should be trading around market structure and trend. >> Yeah. I mean for me I I my primary my primary setup is a very specific I call it a trend line break setup but it's not what I'm not doing is just drawing trend lines all over the place. There's a very specific system that I have where price comes into an area area of structure support and resistance for all the old old guys out there and then there's a specific trend line break that occurs and if I've got certain things going on on that market. So there's a there's a flat allin position that's a one to three R and then if certain things occur I can leg into that trade and I will add in. So I'll add two quarter quarter positions in. So I'll have one and a half in that trade. And then as >> would that be when the first one's break even, you would add the others? >> No. So I will go up I will go up the risk. So if if certain things are happening, it's primarily a divergence that I look for. So if if price does what I want, I'm into. So if the setup occurs, I will get in at 1% across the board on all of those. on my fund a little less if there are certain parameters happening where I've got a diver a specific set of divergences on that market because again I'm looking at price essentially just getting getting out of a downward move or an upward move and crossing over the trend line if that happens I will add in two lots of quarter positions if price proves so what happens is I'm into that trade and I'm in I'm in at one and a half and then I will get out at the 3 to one and then immediately when price reaches well immediately when price reaches 2:1 one stop comes up. So then I'm in a position where I've got one and a half in but no risk >> out at the 3:1 and then I'll try and run the the half those two quarter positions on further and I'm using things like sentiment then because sentiment's a waste of time when markets are at at levels. So I'm looking at retail sentiment. I'm looking at commitment of traders but only once the price starts moving in my direction. If I can start to see a shift in that sentiment I will run that and then I'm usually looking at a higher time frame moving average. So essentially a mean reversion on a bigger time frame of what is a setup. So yeah, >> it's not it's it to me it's not highly technical to somebody new. There's a lot of technical in there, but it's not it's not 101 different things. It's a fairly simple fairly simple process. >> You mentioned um adding in risk um after your entry because you're seeing certain things. Are those certain things giving you more confidence or higher conviction? Hence the additional risk. >> But they are also measured in. So if it's it's it's it's it's how the bars are performing. So if if essentially the setup itself is a pullback. So if price performs well rather than stalls that has a higher probability of price reaching its target because again I've looked at hundreds and hundreds of these trades. So if I get the pullback set up and price drifts it doesn't mean it won't reach its target but if I see a reaction on that pullback that's quicker. Remember I'm swing trading so this isn't on a fiveminute chart. If I see a certain reaction that has a higher probability of reaching that target and if that's combined with the higher higher time frame divergence, I'm getting into a bit of complexity here. Then that suggests a bigger picture move further on in that direction past my target. So then I'm like, right, I'm just going to add into that. So then we're and then so again, a little bit like you, I want to get the risk off the table because I'm in at one and a half rather than just one. But if it's doing certain things and there's scope for that trade to run. But the nice thing for me about that is I've only got I've got that extra it's like an extra half that I'm running. So if that doesn't make it to the mean reversion on the higher time frame. So essentially like the the weekly 50 moving average. I've got no risk and I've already banked on the I've already banked on the original trade. The >> the reason I asked that was because there is an initial entry which is valued for you where you put 1%. And then there's additional things that develop that warrant additional risk. Why split it up in that way as opposed to waiting for that full development and then putting 1.5 in one go at the end? Why split it up into two? >> Because I want the I want the original trade. I want that as my bread and butter because that will clock over >> more often. And then if I've got the divergence and the bigger time frame picture sets up, I'm essentially using that as a I'm using that as a a databacked excuse to try and run that trade for longer. >> Yeah. >> And you mentioned divergence. diverges between what? >> So I'm looking at price price and MACD. >> So if I see that if I see that on a mo if I see that on multiple time frames because if I'm going to try and run that trade for longer, I want I want a a justified reason of a bigger mean reversion. So, if I'm taking this setup on the daily, the standard setup is on the daily, but I'm looking for a divergence on the weekly and the daily because then I've got a higher chance of a a mean reversion on the weekly, which is essentially a bigger a bigger run that I can take that extra I take that extra half a percent and and go for a bigger a bigger target. >> And how do you do break evens or do you do break even? >> Yes. So, I do on that system I do break even, but I do it once price risk reward. >> Yeah. Two to one, but I run the trade for three. Okay. I've got another I've got another trendbased system that the probability is better to move the move the stop to break even at one for one with the target of two. So again, it's a slightly different setup. It's more trend based, but that's purely data driven. So again, I go through and look at all the variables. What if what are the best targets? What is the best point? What I don't like doing is moving my stop to break even unless there's a reason for it. So, one of the things I did when I first started out was I would just I'd ratchet my I'd ratchet my stop to break even um too quickly and would be clipped out of too many trades. So, there's nothing wrong with moving your stop to break even. There are tons of traders I know out there that do it and they're doing it in an irrational way rather than having a process like you've like you've got. So, again, for me, it's all about well, what what what's the what's the end outcome? First thing is what's the most profitable outcome rather than just moving my stop to break even and then how does that impact win loss? What's the consequence of that? Am I going how many trades are going to clip back, stop me out, then run on to target. So I'm just balancing out those things when I'm doing it. >> It's interesting how the break even comes at a fixed R level because every trade is going to be a bit different but it's still at the fixed R as opposed to break even upon a technical let me you know I'm selling at the moment I arrived to a support level that's when price could reverse so let me take a break even or partial here. Why is it based on fixed levels as opposed to technical levels >> just because that's the that's the strategy and that's the data. There's nothing wrong with what you're saying in terms of in terms of doing that on one of the particular trendbased strategies that I will run. There has to be the minimum between there has to be enough clean air to be able to run that stop. So I won't take that trade unless I can get a minimum of one to one because >> if it's not worth it because I can't then ratchet my stop out. Doesn't mean it's going to get to one for one. But if I can't get one for one then I'm not going to even I'm not going to even take the trade because I want to be able to derisk it if I can. >> Yeah. The reason I transitioned to fix R was because based on how I felt obviously when you talk about technical reversal points you can have many and if you have M5 zone then M15 zone then a lower low then a support level you can have 10 levels on your screen and based on fear and greed I guess it was like I'd pick a different one each time and that randomness sometimes would work in my favor sometimes not and it was not a system essentially and sometimes it would be okay I maximize it sometimes it was horrible and the fixed for me was a was a big change. Um, do you use prop firms or are you a believer in prop firms on yourself? >> I I have no issue with prop firms. It's like anything. There's good and there's bad out there. Um, I personally don't. I don't I'm fortunate enough that I I don't I don't have to I don't have to do it. Um, I again I don't have an issue with a trader doing it. Um, the challenge is I think there's three-fold is one if they're coming in and that's their only focus. If I'm working with a trader, I try and get them to, like I said, trade their own money alongside because I want them to see the difference in their emotions. Um, I think I think in terms of where it will go, I'm hopeful. I'm always a bit maybe naively optimistic that the industry will will will get better and better and better. There are brokers, you know, there's more brokers getting involved in that field. And I think I think ultimately it's a it's a good thing. Does that mean every every prop firm's operating perfectly and doing everything right? No. I've had students that have, you know, supposed to get a payout and they change the rules and there's all this sort of thing going on. But I think if the if the trader can look at it from the point of view of look, this is this is essentially a casino and it and if it works out, great. But if it doesn't, I need to be I need to be a good trader regardless. And I think that's that's the key. And I think yeah c certainly certainly the industry if it if something was to go wrong and there was to be another another another company go bust it could actually not for necessarily for it could actually be a good thing because if there was a little bit of tightening up then it's like anything the the the best and the honest guys in the industries will will rise to the top. So yeah and I think anything that can anything that incentivizes people to become a trader and want to do this is great. They've just got to make sure they're doing it for the right reasons and they're not they're not relying on a prop firm. They're not they're not banking on it being the being the savior and they use using it effectively >> as a tool. Yeah. I I think to be honest the just if we see just from economics market law principles of perfect competition in a new industry which profers well you're going to have crooks you're going to have the the rugpool kind of guys and then eventually you'll come to perfect competition where it's like okay the the prices are coming down the conditions are getting more favorable and these guys are obviously managing their own PR and and reputation so forth so they're going to clean up their act and it'll reach a point where okay it'll get better and better because the consumer are voting with their with their dollars uh and more competition is actually a beneficial thing. But yeah, I think this last three, four years has been chaotic, but it it seems like it is getting better. I want to end up uh the episode with just giving you an open mic. Um towards uh someone that is at the one to three year mark, which most viewers are probably at. Uh what is a lasting piece of advice you want them to remember? >> Stick at it and expand wherever you're at, expand your space and time horizon. So your chances are if you're not getting the results you want, you're hyperfocused on that fact and you're thinking about the last trade, the last week where you did you broke your rules or the last month where it wasn't quite it wasn't quite right. So just by default expand expand your space and time horizon and take a minute and go if I'm thinking about this month and it hasn't I haven't done this or the result wasn't I want let's project out to three months and that isn't an excuse just to to not deal with what's going on right now. But you you mentioned it about you know being you know depression anxiety can be because you're focusing in on what's gone on in the past. Well that's a form of that that that that previous week that previous month is gone. Now the balance of that is not to sweep under the carpet what what you didn't do right but take you know expand that space and time horizon to give yourself the room to do things right. And remember that if you start doing things right or you've been doing things right for 6 months, assuming you are following your process and the strategy has an edge, remember the lag time. The amount of traders that are looking for the result to happen immediately as they start doing everything right, remember the lag time. And I think that if you can if you can do that and have faith, you'll you'll get there. >> There we go. Ali, a wonderful episode. Thank you very much for joining us today. >> Thank you for having me. >> There we go. Boom. There we are. Excellent.